It is an example, but it does strike at the heart of the issue. No project knows all of their users. No project knows about all other technologies and fields that may intersect with their own. On the other hand, package owner can be reasonably expected to know what their target user base requires (if they don’t, why did they create a package) and can be expected to seek out the missing pieces. Moving projects and code is time consuming and may not achieve the original goal of making the XML editor easily available to as many Eclipse users as possible. Conversely, it would be a fairly easy concrete step (instead of just complaining) for this group of people, in the interest of promoting a better perception of Eclipse the IDE to reach out to package owners that don’t currently include the XML editor and to suggest that they consider including it. We could also promote further consolidation of packages to reduce user confusion and to reduce the likelihood that a user gets a negative perception of Eclipse because when they reach for a tool that they need, it’s not already there. For the record, I don’t speak for the WTP project or the XML editor team. - Konstantin
From: Doug Schaefer
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 12:34 PM
To: Discussions about the IDE
Subject: Re: [ide-dev] Ctrl-1 driven development
Again, it’s just an example. But I expect projects to know who all their users are. A subset of them use the EPP packages (and there aren’t that many packages). If you feel that the use of a component of your project is outside of your scope, that’s an example of where maybe your project shouldn’t be hosting that component and it should go to a project where it is the scope. Anyway, that isn’t important right now. What is is making sure the Eclipse IDE has sufficient marketing to be successful and getting the IDE website in shape is a great start. And, yes, to the other parts of this thread, implementing strategic features that can give us a competitive advantage or at least give us parity is equally important. I find it hard to believe that all CDT committers are completely unaware that there is an XML editor at Eclipse. In any case, my point is that the package owners are best-placed to know what’s needed for the profile of the developer they hope to accommodate and to seek out those solutions. It’s unrealistic to ask all projects to become experts on the user profile of every package and to market their wares to those package owners. The more likely reason that the C++ package still ships without the XML editor is the legacy of thinking that the packages should be minimalistic in scope. In my opinion, more harm is done by perception of Eclipse IDE as lacking in functionality than would be done by having fewer larger packages. Fortunately, changing what’s included in packages or even how many packages we have is not complex or time consuming undertaking from a technical standpoint. - Konstantin
From: Doug Schaefer
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 9:53 AM
To: Konstantin Komissarchik;Discussions about the IDE
Subject: Re: [ide-dev] Ctrl-1 driven development
It's just an example. But the CDT committers don't often look at the WTP project to see if they have things they would need. One could assume that WTP only does Web tools. XML editing isn't often considered a Web tool. A bigger one may be _javascript_. It's a good thing I did look over there or I would have built a entire _javascript_ IDE for my Qt desktop and embedded developers. Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Rogers network. From: Konstantin Komissarchik Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 12:46 PM To: Discussions about the IDE Reply To: Discussions about the IDE Subject: Re: [ide-dev] Ctrl-1 driven development |
Why is it important that WTP does all the leg work to get the xml editor in all packages? The package owners could take the initiative. I notice, for instance, that the C++ package doesn't include it for some reason.
Konstantin Komissarchik Senior Development Manager Why does it matter if the XML Editor is under the WTP top-level project. It is available as a separate feature, so all EPP packages can include it.
It would be fine if WTP took full responsibility for it and promoted it as the Eclipse XML editor and ensure EPP packages were using it, and all users knew about it. And if that’s happening then there really isn’t much of an issue. CDT is as guilty of doing things like this. We have lots of features that the Platform (and JRE for that matter) didn’t provide that we know our users and adopters do so we built them. But don’t tell anyone else about them even though lots of them would be useful to other stacks. Which comes back to the web presence issue we were talking about. I don’t want a better CDT web site, I want a better Eclipse IDE web site. And, yes, we would have a section showing off the features for C++ developers but as we try to do in the UI, we don’t need to mention the CDT project. That’s not where they start. When you go to the IntelliJ site, you don’t see features organized by the teams that built them. Kaloyan On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 6:58 PM, Doug Schaefer <dschaefer@xxxxxxx> wrote: Reply-To: Discussions about the IDE <ide-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Friday, October 16, 2015 at 11:26 AM
To: Discussions about the IDE <ide-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [ide-dev] Ctrl-1 driven development On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 4:56 PM, Patrik Suzzi <psuzzi@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: Max,
Eclipse XML editor for WTP improved a lot in last years.My fear is
only few people can appreciate the new features, as
- eclipse SDK is not shipping this as default XML editor
- default view is the grid view, and the users might be mislead.
can we fix this and make the better XML editor the Eclipse default ?
Yeah, my first reaction was, why is the XML editor in WTP? It’s always one of the first things I install into a fresh Eclipse install. We have lots of features like that floating around the projects. Would be good to get them the wider audience the deserve. As example: I worked years with WTP, then I switched to PDE
in last years I did not use that XML editor, because I did not installed WTP
> so I'm of the ones who skipped these good parts.
Beside this, the editor is good now. I was really mislead by the grid view :( !
I have only a couple of suggestions, on this blog post.
http://www.asegno.com/2015/eclipse/improve-eclipse-xml-editor/
I would be happy to amend by contributing in this direction.
The higher the number of user, the higher is the number of suggestions
we can get to make improvements.
For this we'll need to improve our software accessibility and documentation.
/patrik
http://about.me/psuzzi
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