RE: [eclipse.org-planning-council] RE: EclipseProjectAnnouncementandProj

["Gaff, Doug" <doug.gaff@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Nicely put David.

I'm giving a tutorial at EclipseCon, "So you want to run a project in
Eclipse". I hope to do the subject of this thread some justice in that
tutorial. I've certainly learned this stuff the hard way.

Doug G 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: eclipse.org-planning-council-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:eclipse.org-planning-council-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
> David J. Orme
> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 3:45 PM
> To: eclipse.org-planning-council
> Subject: RE: [eclipse.org-planning-council] RE:
> EclipseProjectAnnouncementandProject Review Schedule
> 
> There has been a long-standing problem in *many* Eclipse projects that
> hallway and conference-room conversations aren't documented in public.
> 
> Go read the OFMP and Rienna newsgroups, for example.
> 
> <takingOutPortableSoapBox>
> <steppingUpOnSoapBox>
> <soapBox>
> This is ultimately what killed VE, IMNSHO.  (And I would be in a
> position to know.)
> 
> To the extent that VE's failure can be blamed on me personally, I
blame
> its failure on my own failure to successfully mentor the IBM team in
> open-source practices.  This contributed to the lack of diversity
which
> resulted in the non-resilience of the project when it lost its single
> major backer.
> 
> (There are other reasons and I'd be happy to candidly discuss them
over
> a drink at EclipseCon if that helps other projects to avoid VE's
fate.)
> 
> IMO, Platform is in danger of becoming another VE, if they don't
> increase their diversity, and thus their resiliancy to project team
> turnover.
> 
> Put in project-management speak, we've got a "key-man" dependency on
> the
> IBM team, and especially on a few key people within it.
> 
> ....
> 
> But as I said at the top, this isn't an IBM problem or a Platform
> problem, but a practical problem of teaching people who have (often)
> never done open-source before what open-source rules of engagement
are.
> 
> It's also a problem of how to mentor people so they not only
understand
> what the expectations are, but *why it's in their own interest* to
> follow these expectations.
> 
> I'd like to see a survey of committers asking how many of them have
> actually read /The Cathedral and the Bazaar/ (CATB).  And I'd wager
> that
> digesting that paper and/or actually working in another hard-core
> open-source project (ie: Linux Kernel or Gnome or KDE) is the main way
> to learn open-source rules of engagement.
> 
> Speaking of which, how many people on this list have (a) worked in a
> hard-core open-source project or (b) spent some time to really digest
> CATB?  ;-)
> </soapBox>
> </steppingUpOnSoapBox>
> </takingOutPortableSoapBox>  ;-)
> 
> Actually, I wouldn't necessarily expect everyone on this list to have
> heard of CATB.  For historical sake, CATB was the paper that
influenced
> Netscape to create the Mozilla project and that also was influential
in
> IBM getting involved in open-source to begin with.
> 
> If you haven't read it, you really owe it to yourself to do so.
Here's
> the link:
> 
> http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/cathedral-bazaar/
> 
> 
> Dave
> 
> On Thu, 2008-03-06 at 09:37 -0800, Schaefer, Doug wrote:
> > This whole thing goes against everything we've been preaching about
> > openness, transparency, and diversity.
> >
> > Doug S.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: eclipse.org-planning-council-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:eclipse.org-planning-council-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
> Of
> > Oberhuber, Martin
> > Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 12:16 PM
> > To: eclipse.org-planning-council
> > Subject: [eclipse.org-planning-council] RE: Eclipse
> > ProjectAnnouncementandProject Review Schedule
> >
> >
> > > - Nobody likes processing Bugzilla bugs.  But it's the way you
> >
> > Well, I do like Bugzilla a lot, but that's after having had to use
> other
> > bug tracking systems... well anyways, perhaps your statement
explains
> > why
> >
> >   * The "Create the Eclipse 4.0 Plan" bugzilla item felt
> >     a bit like a black hole of ideas and suggestions at
> >     times, but no real community discussion:
> >     https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=200097
> >
> >   * There are some long-running well known Eclipse bugs
> >     with great suggestions from the community but no
> >     real progress:
> >     https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=35973
> >     https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=8519
> >
> > And as Doug Gaff has pointed out, there are people with a proven
> record
> > of patches available... but nobody has asked them so far...
> >
> > Anyways, what really surprised me about today's announcement of an
E4
> > component with initial committer list, was that it looks like quite
> some
> > discussions (and rumors even have it even some prototyping!) has
been
> > happening for Eclipse 4.0 without the slightest community
> involvement.
> >
> > Not even the Architecture Council has been involved in the slightes
> way
> > with these things (at least not that I'm aware of it).
> >
> > Let's make sure this gets better! I'm eager to learn what's already
> been
> > baking, and I'd certainly be looking forward to commit my time and
> > energy into it.
> >
> > Let's hear what the current status and thoughts are.
> > I'm very much looking forward to EclipseCon, but perhaps some hints
> > could even be published in advance?
> > http://www.eclipsecon.org/2008/?page=sub/&id=223
> >
> > Cheers,
> > --
> > Martin Oberhuber, Senior Member of Technical Staff, Wind River
Target
> > Management Project Lead, DSDP PMC Member
> http://www.eclipse.org/dsdp/tm
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
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> >
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> --
> Dave Orme
> http://www.coconut-palm-software.com
> djo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Coconut Palm Software -- Software Paradise in the Midwest
> 
> 
> 
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