Re: [dsdp-dd-dev] Re: [cdt-dev] Re: NewDebug Model(was: Editortechnology

[Pawel Piech <pawel.piech@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Hi Mikhail,
I will add a "interoperability" section to the requirements section of 
the debug model discussion.  I would appreciate any input you could provide.
Thanks
Pawel

Mikhail Khodjaiants wrote:
> Pawel,
>
> I agree, it's better to postpone this discussion and try come up with 
> a common layer later. I just want to keep it in mind from the early 
> stages.
> And you are right, we used to have co-existence problems with JDT at 
> the beginning (especially, in Eclipse 1.0).
>
> Thanks,
> Mikhail
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pawel Piech" 
> <pawel.piech@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: "CDT General developers list." <cdt-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 3:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [dsdp-dd-dev] Re: [cdt-dev] Re: NewDebug Model(was: 
> Editortechnology subgroup)
>
>
> > Mikhail,
> > I see where you're coming from.  I'd rather postpone discussion of 
> > the model we're proposing until we can all browse through it in 
> > full.  I really apologize for the fact that it's been so long in 
> > coming, but hopefully it will pay off by letting us focus on the 
> > architectural problems to solve rather than the obvious 
> > implementation mistakes.
> > I agree that non-conflicting coexistence of different debug models is 
> > very important, but we can probably do even better than that and 
> > introduce a level of interoperability between different debug 
> > models.  For example, in the use case where we would like to have 
> > debugger than can debug both java applications and the native JNI 
> > libraries that they use.
> > Given your role, I'm sure you have a lot of other use cases and 
> > corresponding requirements for interoperability between different 
> > debug models.  In my personal experience, or in the experience of our 
> > commercial product, we have not had many use cases for the debug 
> > model besides populating the various debug views, and enabling the 
> > various debug actions.
> > -Pawel
> >
> > Mikhail Khodjaiants wrote:
> > > Pawel,
> > >
> > > > What is your opinion, do you think that the standard platform model 
> > > > meets these needs?
> > > If you mean by "standard platform model" the model based on 
> > > IDebugElement then my answer is no, it doesn't.
> > >
> > > > What about the flexible hierarchy model?
> > > The new framework we call "the flexible hierarchy model" is really 
> > > very flexible :) , but it's not a model. It allows to integrate and 
> > > use different debug models with the same UI components.
> > > Correct me if I am wrong, but you are proposing a model that can be 
> > > integrated into this framework and used by various ISV for their 
> > > debugger implementations. As far as I know your model is a 
> > > command-oriented model that fits very effectively for the back ends 
> > > like gdb/mi and it's modifications. But for API-based back ends it 
> > > is not very efficient to represent API function as request-reply 
> > > pairs. So, one of the problems that I see is to assure the 
> > > non-conflicting coexistence of different debug models in Eclipse.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Mikhail
> > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pawel Piech" 
> > > <pawel.piech@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > To: "Device Debugging developer discussions" <dsdp-dd-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Cc: "CDT General developers list." <cdt-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 12:47 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [dsdp-dd-dev] Re: [cdt-dev] Re: New Debug Model(was: 
> > > Editortechnology subgroup)
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi Mikhail,
> > > > For traceability, I posted your question and my reply in the "talk" 
> > > > section of the page 
> > > > http://wiki.eclipse.org/index.php/Talk:DSDP/DD/DebugModel
> > > >
> > > > But in short, I'm hoping that a discussion about requirements will 
> > > > lead to a logical answer to your question. What is your opinion, do 
> > > > you think that the standard platform model meets these needs?  What 
> > > > about the flexible hierarchy model?
> > > >
> > > > Cheers
> > > > Pawel
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Mikhail Khodjaiants wrote:
> > > > > Pawel,
> > > > >
> > > > > Assuming the proposed requirements target more than one (Oceanian) 
> > > > > monitoring system it would be good to define the place for it 
> > > > > within the Eclipse project. Is it an extension of the platform 
> > > > > model or an implementation of it that allows to plug in different 
> > > > > back ends?
> > > > >
> > > > > Mikhail Khodjaiants
> > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pawel Piech" 
> > > > > <pawel.piech@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > To: "CDT General developers list." <cdt-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > Cc: "Device Debugging developer discussions" 
> > > > > <dsdp-dd-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 8:03 PM
> > > > > Subject: [dsdp-dd-dev] Re: [cdt-dev] Re: New Debug Model (was: 
> > > > > Editortechnology subgroup)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > As promised, I started on defining the requirements for an 
> > > > > > optimal debug model design for embedded debugging.  I took kind 
> > > > > > of a fun approach to the problem, so please let me know if you 
> > > > > > think it's confusing or inappropriate.
> > > > > > -Pawel
> > > > > >
> > > > > > See: http://wiki.eclipse.org/index.php/DSDP/DD/DebugModel
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Pawel Piech wrote:
> > > > > > > Hi All,
> > > > > > > I'll start off by apologizing.  I've been meaning to edit the 
> > > > > > > http://wiki.eclipse.org/index.php/DSDP/DD/DebugModel to start 
> > > > > > > collecting requirements, but it seems like such a daunting task 
> > > > > > > that I ended up putting it off week after week :-(  So rather 
> > > > > > > than make up more excuses I'll make sure that I get started on 
> > > > > > > it today.  If anyone already has a set of requirements written 
> > > > > > > up, please feel free to post them on the twiki page or mail them 
> > > > > > > to the list, it'll make this process a lot easier.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Separately, we have been working on a prototype that we will 
> > > > > > > commit to CVS shortly.  This is the same prototype that we 
> > > > > > > talked about in the February DSDP meeting, except we have 
> > > > > > > rewritten it a couple of time since to take advantage of 
> > > > > > > standards that are in JDK 5.0 and in OSGI. At this point, aside 
> > > > > > > from javadocs and example code, the prototype code is ready to 
> > > > > > > commit, we're just waiting to get the required signatures from 
> > > > > > > within the company.  So rather than try to describe what this 
> > > > > > > thing is about, I'd rather wait another week or so and just post 
> > > > > > > the code for everyone to look at.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -Pawel
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > P.S. I just signed up for dsdp-dd-dev and cdt-dev... better late 
> > > > > > > then never.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Oberhuber, Martin wrote:
> > > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > while Doug Gaff is at the WR User Conference in Orlando,
> > > > > > > > let me go ahead and start the new thread :-)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yes, Pawel P has made quite some progress on prototyping
> > > > > > > > against the Flexible Debug Model. Sine quite a bit of this
> > > > > > > > is based on former WR proprietary code, we'll need to wait
> > > > > > > > for IP clearance before we can actually make a contribution.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > We hope this to happen anytime soon.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > > > > Martin
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Martin Oberhuber - WindRiver, Austria
> > > > > > > > +43(662)457915-85
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > > From: dsdp-dd-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx 
> > > > > > > > > [mailto:dsdp-dd-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ewa 
> > > > > > > > > Matejska
> > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 8:43 PM
> > > > > > > > > To: CDT General developers list.; Device Debugging developer 
> > > > > > > > > discussions
> > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [cdt-dev] RE: [dsdp-dd-dev] Editor technology 
> > > > > > > > > subgroup
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I propose starting a new thread for future communications 
> > > > > > > > > about the
> > > > > > > > > Debug Model since there's a technology subgroup in the 
> > > > > > > > > DSDP-DD.  I would
> > > > > > > > > like to leave this thread for Editor 
> > > > > > > > > enhancement/ideas/requests focusing
> > > > > > > > > on embedded development.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > > Ewa.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > > From: cdt-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx 
> > > > > > > > > [mailto:cdt-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > > > > > > > On Behalf Of Greg Watson
> > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 10:45 AM
> > > > > > > > > To: CDT General developers list.
> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [cdt-dev] RE: [dsdp-dd-dev] Editor technology 
> > > > > > > > > subgroup
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I got confused by all the Dougs. :-) I'd like to work with 
> > > > > > > > > anyone on this!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Greg
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On May 12, 2006, at 9:48 AM, Mikhail Khodjaiants wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Doug S,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I sent my previous message before I saw yours. It is for Doug G
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Mikhail K
> > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Schaefer"
> > > > > > > > > <DSchaefer@xxxxxxx>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > To: "CDT General developers list." <cdt-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 11:46 AM
> > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [cdt-dev] RE: [dsdp-dd-dev] Editor technology 
> > > > > > > > > > subgroup
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Which Doug is everyone talking about :).
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Since the Greg's note was sent to cdt-dev, I thought it was 
> > > > > > > > > > > for me. This
> > > > > > > > > > > note sounds like it is for Doug G...
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Doug Schaefer, QNX Software Systems
> > > > > > > > > > > Eclipse CDT Project Lead, Tools PMC member
> > > > > > > > > > > http://cdtdoug.blogspot.com
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > > > > From: cdt-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:cdt-dev- 
> > > > > > > > > > > bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On
> > > > > > > > > > > Behalf Of Mikhail Khodjaiants
> > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 11:35 AM
> > > > > > > > > > > To: CDT General developers list.
> > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [cdt-dev] RE: [dsdp-dd-dev] Editor technology 
> > > > > > > > > > > subgroup
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Doug,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > There was a special group formed among others at the last 
> > > > > > > > > > > DSDP meeting to
> > > > > > > > > > > work on the design of the debug model. I volunteered to 
> > > > > > > > > > > participate, but I
> > > > > > > > > > > haven't heard anything since. You mentioned that Pavel and
> > > > > > > > > Ted are
> > > > > > > > > > > doing
> > > > > > > > > > > some work in this direction. Is there any new information 
> > > > > > > > > > > available on what
> > > > > > > > > > > they are doing?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > > > > Mikhail Khodjaiants
> > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Watson" 
> > > > > > > > > > > <g.watson@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > > > > > > > To: "CDT General developers list." <cdt-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 11:11 AM
> > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [cdt-dev] RE: [dsdp-dd-dev] Editor technology 
> > > > > > > > > > > subgroup
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Doug,
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder if we could be involved in the design of the next 
> > > > > > > > > > > > generation
> > > > > > > > > > > > debugger model? We're also looking at how to use the 
> > > > > > > > > > > > flexible debug model
> > > > > > > > > > > >           for the parallel debugger. Since we reused 
> > > > > > > > > > > > considerable
> > > > > > > > > portions
> > > > > > > > > > > > of CDT
> > > > > > > > > > > > debugger functionality in the parallel debugger  
> > > > > > > > > > > > implementation, it would
> > > > > > > > > > > > make sense to try and combine efforts here.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > Greg
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > On May 12, 2006, at 8:19 AM, Doug Schaefer wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW, Welcome Toni!
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > We've been in need of some focus on the CDT editor for a 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > while and I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > look
> > > > > > > > > > > > > forward to your contributions.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug Schaefer, QNX Software Systems
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Eclipse CDT Project Lead, Tools PMC member
> > > > > > > > > > > > > http://cdtdoug.blogspot.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > > > > > > > From: dsdp-dd-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > > > > > > > > > [mailto:dsdp-dd-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Gaff, Doug
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 2:43 PM
> > > > > > > > > > > > > To: Device Debugging developer discussions
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Cc: Leherbauer, Anton; CDT General developers list.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [dsdp-dd-dev] Editor technology subgroup
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi folks,
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I've asked Toni Leherbauer from my team to provide input
> > > > > > > > > on the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > editor.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Toni is currently looking at enhancing the CDT editor and 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > is collecting
> > > > > > > > > > > > > some features on the CDT project plan.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > http://wiki.eclipse.org/index.php/CDT/planning/4.0
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Since there is interest in the editor in both the CDT and 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > DD projects,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > we should keep both groups in the loop.  And of course, we 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > should have
> > > > > > > > > > > > > one editor solution in the end (in CDT).  We started
> > > > > > > > > discussing
> > > > > > > > > > > > > this in
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the DD project in Toronto simply as a way to capture 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > requirements as
> > > > > > > > > > > > > they related to debugging.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, as I mentioned on the recent DD call, Ted and Pawel 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > are working on
> > > > > > > > > > > > > a prototype for a generic debugger implementation of the
> > > > > > > > > Eclipse
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 3.2
> > > > > > > > > > > > > debug model interfaces (EDMI 3.2 for short).  The goal
> > > > > > > > > is that this
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > prototype will form the basis of a next-generation 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > debugger model that
> > > > > > > > > > > > > benefits folks using CDT and folks working directly with 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > the Eclipse
> > > > > > > > > > > > > platform today.  We intend to get this committed in the
> > > > > > > > > next few
> > > > > > > > > > > > > weeks
> > > > > > > > > > > > > so that the community can start discussing architecture, 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > interfaces, and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > requirements.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > So regarding the editor, I see open questions around how 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > we integrate
> > > > > > > > > > > > > disassembly, breakpoints, instruction pointers, etc. with 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > a new debugger
> > > > > > > > > > > > > implementation.  I am also wondering how the editor will
> > > > > > > > > deal with
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > multiple debug engines simultaneously (for example, how
> > > > > > > > > to set the
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > default breakpoint scope).
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Doug
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > >
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