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Re: [dsdp-dd-dev] Re: [cdt-dev] Re: NewDebug Model(was: Editortechnology subgroup)
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Pawel,
I agree, it's better to postpone this discussion and try come up with a
common layer later. I just want to keep it in mind from the early stages.
And you are right, we used to have co-existence problems with JDT at the
beginning (especially, in Eclipse 1.0).
Thanks,
Mikhail
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pawel Piech" <pawel.piech@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "CDT General developers list." <cdt-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: [dsdp-dd-dev] Re: [cdt-dev] Re: NewDebug Model(was:
Editortechnology subgroup)
Mikhail,
I see where you're coming from. I'd rather postpone discussion of the
model we're proposing until we can all browse through it in full. I
really apologize for the fact that it's been so long in coming, but
hopefully it will pay off by letting us focus on the architectural
problems to solve rather than the obvious implementation mistakes.
I agree that non-conflicting coexistence of different debug models is very
important, but we can probably do even better than that and introduce a
level of interoperability between different debug models. For example, in
the use case where we would like to have debugger than can debug both java
applications and the native JNI libraries that they use.
Given your role, I'm sure you have a lot of other use cases and
corresponding requirements for interoperability between different debug
models. In my personal experience, or in the experience of our commercial
product, we have not had many use cases for the debug model besides
populating the various debug views, and enabling the various debug
actions.
-Pawel
Mikhail Khodjaiants wrote:
Pawel,
What is your opinion, do you think that the standard platform model
meets these needs?
If you mean by "standard platform model" the model based on IDebugElement
then my answer is no, it doesn't.
What about the flexible hierarchy model?
The new framework we call "the flexible hierarchy model" is really very
flexible :) , but it's not a model. It allows to integrate and use
different debug models with the same UI components.
Correct me if I am wrong, but you are proposing a model that can be
integrated into this framework and used by various ISV for their debugger
implementations. As far as I know your model is a command-oriented model
that fits very effectively for the back ends like gdb/mi and it's
modifications. But for API-based back ends it is not very efficient to
represent API function as request-reply pairs. So, one of the problems
that I see is to assure the non-conflicting coexistence of different
debug models in Eclipse.
Thanks,
Mikhail
----- Original Message ----- From: "Pawel Piech"
<pawel.piech@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Device Debugging developer discussions" <dsdp-dd-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "CDT General developers list." <cdt-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2006 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: [dsdp-dd-dev] Re: [cdt-dev] Re: New Debug Model(was:
Editortechnology subgroup)
Hi Mikhail,
For traceability, I posted your question and my reply in the "talk"
section of the page
http://wiki.eclipse.org/index.php/Talk:DSDP/DD/DebugModel
But in short, I'm hoping that a discussion about requirements will lead
to a logical answer to your question. What is your opinion, do you think
that the standard platform model meets these needs? What about the
flexible hierarchy model?
Cheers
Pawel
Mikhail Khodjaiants wrote:
Pawel,
Assuming the proposed requirements target more than one (Oceanian)
monitoring system it would be good to define the place for it within
the Eclipse project. Is it an extension of the platform model or an
implementation of it that allows to plug in different back ends?
Mikhail Khodjaiants
----- Original Message ----- From: "Pawel Piech"
<pawel.piech@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "CDT General developers list." <cdt-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "Device Debugging developer discussions" <dsdp-dd-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 8:03 PM
Subject: [dsdp-dd-dev] Re: [cdt-dev] Re: New Debug Model (was:
Editortechnology subgroup)
As promised, I started on defining the requirements for an optimal
debug model design for embedded debugging. I took kind of a fun
approach to the problem, so please let me know if you think it's
confusing or inappropriate.
-Pawel
See: http://wiki.eclipse.org/index.php/DSDP/DD/DebugModel
Pawel Piech wrote:
Hi All,
I'll start off by apologizing. I've been meaning to edit the
http://wiki.eclipse.org/index.php/DSDP/DD/DebugModel to start
collecting requirements, but it seems like such a daunting task that
I ended up putting it off week after week :-( So rather than make up
more excuses I'll make sure that I get started on it today. If
anyone already has a set of requirements written up, please feel free
to post them on the twiki page or mail them to the list, it'll make
this process a lot easier.
Separately, we have been working on a prototype that we will commit
to CVS shortly. This is the same prototype that we talked about in
the February DSDP meeting, except we have rewritten it a couple of
time since to take advantage of standards that are in JDK 5.0 and in
OSGI. At this point, aside from javadocs and example code, the
prototype code is ready to commit, we're just waiting to get the
required signatures from within the company. So rather than try to
describe what this thing is about, I'd rather wait another week or so
and just post the code for everyone to look at.
-Pawel
P.S. I just signed up for dsdp-dd-dev and cdt-dev... better late then
never.
Oberhuber, Martin wrote:
Hi,
while Doug Gaff is at the WR User Conference in Orlando,
let me go ahead and start the new thread :-)
Yes, Pawel P has made quite some progress on prototyping
against the Flexible Debug Model. Sine quite a bit of this
is based on former WR proprietary code, we'll need to wait
for IP clearance before we can actually make a contribution.
We hope this to happen anytime soon.
Cheers,
Martin
--
Martin Oberhuber - WindRiver, Austria
+43(662)457915-85
-----Original Message-----
From: dsdp-dd-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:dsdp-dd-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ewa Matejska
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 8:43 PM
To: CDT General developers list.; Device Debugging developer
discussions
Subject: RE: [cdt-dev] RE: [dsdp-dd-dev] Editor technology subgroup
Hi,
I propose starting a new thread for future communications about the
Debug Model since there's a technology subgroup in the DSDP-DD. I
would
like to leave this thread for Editor enhancement/ideas/requests
focusing
on embedded development.
Thanks,
Ewa.
-----Original Message-----
From: cdt-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:cdt-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Greg Watson
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 10:45 AM
To: CDT General developers list.
Subject: Re: [cdt-dev] RE: [dsdp-dd-dev] Editor technology subgroup
I got confused by all the Dougs. :-) I'd like to work with anyone
on this!
Greg
On May 12, 2006, at 9:48 AM, Mikhail Khodjaiants wrote:
Doug S,
I sent my previous message before I saw yours. It is for Doug G
Mikhail K
----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Schaefer"
<DSchaefer@xxxxxxx>
To: "CDT General developers list." <cdt-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 11:46 AM
Subject: RE: [cdt-dev] RE: [dsdp-dd-dev] Editor technology
subgroup
Which Doug is everyone talking about :).
Since the Greg's note was sent to cdt-dev, I thought it was for
me. This
note sounds like it is for Doug G...
Doug Schaefer, QNX Software Systems
Eclipse CDT Project Lead, Tools PMC member
http://cdtdoug.blogspot.com
-----Original Message-----
From: cdt-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:cdt-dev-
bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Mikhail Khodjaiants
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 11:35 AM
To: CDT General developers list.
Subject: Re: [cdt-dev] RE: [dsdp-dd-dev] Editor technology
subgroup
Doug,
There was a special group formed among others at the last DSDP
meeting to
work on the design of the debug model. I volunteered to
participate, but I
haven't heard anything since. You mentioned that Pavel and
Ted are
doing
some work in this direction. Is there any new information
available on what
they are doing?
Thanks,
Mikhail Khodjaiants
----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Watson"
<g.watson@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "CDT General developers list." <cdt-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 11:11 AM
Subject: Re: [cdt-dev] RE: [dsdp-dd-dev] Editor technology
subgroup
Doug,
I wonder if we could be involved in the design of the next
generation
debugger model? We're also looking at how to use the flexible
debug model
for the parallel debugger. Since we reused
considerable
portions
of CDT
debugger functionality in the parallel debugger implementation,
it would
make sense to try and combine efforts here.
Greg
On May 12, 2006, at 8:19 AM, Doug Schaefer wrote:
BTW, Welcome Toni!
We've been in need of some focus on the CDT editor for a while
and I
look
forward to your contributions.
Cheers,
Doug Schaefer, QNX Software Systems
Eclipse CDT Project Lead, Tools PMC member
http://cdtdoug.blogspot.com
-----Original Message-----
From: dsdp-dd-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:dsdp-dd-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Gaff,
Doug
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 2:43 PM
To: Device Debugging developer discussions
Cc: Leherbauer, Anton; CDT General developers list.
Subject: RE: [dsdp-dd-dev] Editor technology subgroup
Hi folks,
I've asked Toni Leherbauer from my team to provide input
on the
editor.
Toni is currently looking at enhancing the CDT editor and is
collecting
some features on the CDT project plan.
http://wiki.eclipse.org/index.php/CDT/planning/4.0
Since there is interest in the editor in both the CDT and DD
projects,
we should keep both groups in the loop. And of course, we
should have
one editor solution in the end (in CDT). We started
discussing
this in
the DD project in Toronto simply as a way to capture
requirements as
they related to debugging.
Also, as I mentioned on the recent DD call, Ted and Pawel are
working on
a prototype for a generic debugger implementation of the
Eclipse
3.2
debug model interfaces (EDMI 3.2 for short). The goal
is that this
prototype will form the basis of a next-generation debugger
model that
benefits folks using CDT and folks working directly with the
Eclipse
platform today. We intend to get this committed in the
next few
weeks
so that the community can start discussing architecture,
interfaces, and
requirements.
So regarding the editor, I see open questions around how we
integrate
disassembly, breakpoints, instruction pointers, etc. with a new
debugger
implementation. I am also wondering how the editor will
deal with
multiple debug engines simultaneously (for example, how
to set the
default breakpoint scope).
Doug
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