Re: [toolchain-modernization-strategy] Meeting tomorrow

[Alois Zoitl <alois.zoitl@xxxxxx>]

Hi,

I don't think I can express all your requests well in an E-Mail. I'll
try to be on one of the next calls. However, as it looks like I'm the
only one who is concerned and as the Fear Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD)
communication level went down in the meeting minutes of the last
meeting, I just will sit back grab some popcorn and enjoy the show.

Nonetheless I strongly disagree with the message that it is hard to get
RCP developers. I mostly work with students and within days they are
able to implement something and within weeks they are productive. 

Cheers,
Alois



On Thu, 2025-09-25 at 10:12 +0200, Jonas Helming wrote:
> Hi Alois,
> Thanks for sharing your concerns. I want to try to clarify a few
> points since you could not attend the meeting today.
> In neither the meeting nor the blog article did we discuss or present
> Eclipse Theia as the single solution or “holy grail.” 
> I believe in all our communication, we (ES) explicitly mention that
> there are multiple modernization options, including VS Code and plain
> web technology stacks. Theia is just one option among several, not a
> replacement imposed on anyone. This was definitely also the "tone" in
> the last meeting.
> The reason Theia comes up frequently is that, among the various
> alternatives, it is an Eclipse Foundation project. So when discussing
> the future of Eclipse RCP within the Eclipse ecosystem, Theia
> naturally plays a role in the conversation — but that doesn’t mean we
> consider it the only path forward.
> We also want to acknowledge the impressive work being done to keep
> the Eclipse RCP platform active, stable, and approachable. As you
> rightly said, the community has become much more open and
> collaborative over the years, and these efforts benefit many existing
> adopters who continue to rely on RCP for mission-critical
> applications.
> At the same time, everyone in the discussion — as far as I know —
> agreed that they would not start any new projects on RCP today. That
> duality was a main point in the meeting:
>  * 
>    Appreciating and facilitating the ongoing work and the platform’s
> importance for existing applications
>  * 
>    Acknowledging openly that most of us see other technologies as the
> future for new projects
> Currently, this reality is not fully reflected in public messaging
> about RCP, which often focuses on its viability but doesn’t clearly
> communicate that few would choose it for greenfield projects. I
> personally find this lack of balance concerning.
> 
> To illustrate the concern: I was recently approached by a customer
> planning to implement a new tool with a lifecycle of more than 10
> years. They wanted to use RCP. I recommended considering other
> technology stacks as well. They were 100% reluctant to look at
> alternatives, saying “there is project 31 and all these modernization
> efforts, so RCP will be viable for the next 20 years.”
> 
> Now this external party has chosen a path that nobody in our group —
> the people who know the modernization state and prospects best —
> would choose today. I find this disconnect concerning and believe
> that transparent, neutral communication would help organizations make
> better-informed decisions. Although this will be really hard to
> achieve due to the duality mentioned above
> Finally, you mentioned that several statements about Theia are just
> plain wrong. I would be happy to understand which specific points you
> have in mind.
> 
> Thanks again for sharing your perspective — open discussions like
> this help us all see the bigger picture and move the conversation
> forward together.
> Best regards,
> Jonas
> 
> On Thu, Sep 25, 2025 at 9:36 AM Alois Zoitl via toolchain-
> modernization-strategy <toolchain-modernization-strategy@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > As I'm not able to make to today's meeting and that I find several
> > points in the meeting minutes very concerning I wanted to express
> > my
> > concerns here.
> > 
> > I wanted to clearly state that I don't see Eclipse Theia as the
> > holy
> > grail for the platform: 
> > 
> > No Eclipse Theia is NOT the single solution! 
> > 
> > There are many other solutions out there and currently I don't see
> > that
> > Eclipse Theia is in the foreseeable future any replacement for the
> > platform and I also don't see any signs that this will change.
> > 
> > Furthermore several statements made in favor of Eclispe Theia are
> > just
> > plain wrong!
> > 
> > Requesting that Eclipse Foundation put out messages in favor of one
> > Eclipse project that will clearly harm another one are violating
> > the
> > Eclipse Foundation bylaws and is as such UNACCEPTABLE. 
> > 
> > Jonas I understand why you are doing this. But Jonas, be aware that
> > you
> > are going down a slippery road. Being involved in open source for
> > more
> > then 25 years I can say that I've seen several times similar
> > situations.  And in all cases that I remember all have lost. I
> > don't
> > want us to loose. I'm a bad looser and I guess most of you are too!
> > 
> > But I do not only want to complain. Let us also embrace what
> > positive
> > things are happening. As a long time Eclipse RCP user I noticed a
> > big
> > change: I feel the platform more active, and even more important,
> > approachable then ever. When I started with RCP development the
> > platform developers where perceived as  being unapproachable high
> > up in
> > their ivory tower. This has changed for good. But maybe not reached
> > the
> > wider community. 
> > 
> > Kind Regards,
> > Alois
> > 
> > 
> > On Wed, 2025-09-24 at 15:20 +0200, Jonas Helming via toolchain-
> > modernization-strategy wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > > 
> > > Just a friendly reminder that our next Toolchain Modernization
> > > Interest Group meeting is tomorrow, September 25th, at 2 PM CET.
> > > 
> > > Our main goal for this meeting is to continue the discussion from
> > > our
> > > last session and ideally decide on the next steps for the group.
> > > 
> > > To prepare, please take some time to recap our previous
> > > conversation
> > > (as detailed in the minutes) and come prepared to share your
> > > opinion
> > > on what we should focus on next within the group.
> > > 
> > > You can find the Agenda and Minutes here:
> > > [
> > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1O93M8WGfsQ6k5J0RJHO8gb5PBrnDJQ
> > > X_
> > > JpQ2ikHeUGI/edit?tab=t.0](
> > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1O93M8WGfsQ6k5J0RJHO8gb5PBrnDJQX_J
> > > pQ2ikHeUGI/edit?tab=t.0)
> > > 
> > > See you tomorrow,
> > > Jonas
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > --
> > > Dr. Jonas Helming
> > > 
> > > CEO | Principal Software Architect
> > > EclipseSource
> > > Email: jhelming@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Web: https://eclipsesource.com
> > > Phone: +49  89 21 555 30 - 11 
> > > 
> > > EclipseSource GmbH
> > > Messerschmittstrasse 4
> > > 80992 Muenchen
> > > General Managers: Dr. Jonas Helming, Dr. Maximilian Kögel
> > > Registered Office: Messerschmittstraße 4, 80992 München, 
> > > Commercial Register München, HRB 191789
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> 
> -- 
> --
> Dr. Jonas HelmingCEO | Principal Software Architect EclipseSource
> Email: jhelming@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Web: https://eclipsesource.com
> Phone: +49 89 21 555 30 - 11 EclipseSource GmbH Messerschmittstrasse
> 4 80992 Muenchen
> General Managers: Dr. Jonas Helming, Dr. Maximilian Kögel Registered
> Office: Messerschmittstraße 4, 80992 München, 
> Commercial Register München, HRB 191789