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Re: [orion-dev] Can Orion be less Eclipse

Hi Anthony,

When I first took a look at Orion about a month ago, I wanted to be able to quickly get the code, build it, and then try it out.

Though the project is configured with Maven build files, there is absolutely no way, that I could find, to take the source and build it with Maven from the command line.

The only way the project can be built is by importing all the projects into the Eclipse IDE.

For me, this made a very large barrier to entry to just see it running. Yes, I could have downloaded the distribution bundle, but if I wanted to be able to try it out and look at the code I shouldn't need to download multiple pieces.

As many developers use other IDEs, or even plain text editors, "forcing" the use of Eclipse IDE to even build the project is, in my view, a large barrier to entry.

Max and Gorkem may have less strong views about the above than I.


On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 12:51 PM, Anthony Hunter <anthonyh@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Max / Gorkem,

With regards to your comments.

I have emailed separately instructions on building a WAR file for Orion. My steps create the WAR from Eclipse, because it is easy. We do not have a WAR file created by the Orion build, maybe we should add it.

This is a likely a loaded question but I will bite. We are an Eclipse project and we have a Java based server implementation. It is obvious that we would use the Eclipse IDE for development. This "forced use" of the Eclipse IDE for the Java server development is a barrier to your usage. Can you explain a little more why?


From:        "Max Rydahl Andersen" <manderse@xxxxxxxxxx>
To:        "Orion developer discussions" <orion-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date:        2015/04/09 03:53 AM
Subject:        Re: [orion-dev] Can Orion be less Eclipse
Sent by:        orion-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx

On 3 Apr 2015, at 23:46, Gorkem Ercan wrote:

> On 2 Apr 2015, at 16:36, John Arthorne wrote:
>> Hi Gorkem,
>> The layout of the Orion client is mainly an accident of history,
>> because
>> of how it was developed. The main Orion download we produce today is
>> a
>> Java EE application, and OSGi is very common in Java EE world. We use

I think its overstating it to say osgi is *very common* in Java EE world

> Java backend has more than OSGi, it has eclipse extension points etc.
> For instance servlet and filter definitions as eclipse extensions on
> plugin.xml contributes to barriers for entry to OSGi/JavaEE developers

Yeah, biggest blocker is that with the current setup only those using
Eclipse IDE
can actually develop and even run this easily.

>> Jetty for the open source download, but within IBM there are products
>> that
>> ship Orion as a WAR file running on other servers such as Websphere.
> I heard rumours about this one :) Is there any documentation on how to
> build Orion as .war? Would it make sense to make .war one of the build
> artifacts for the project?

+1, it would be nice to actually see this in action as opposed to just
keep hearing
about it being possible ;)

>> You are right that there is absolutely no runtime benefit for the
>> client
>> side pieces to be organized into OSGi bundles. It is essentially just
>> being used as a development-time and build-time way to separate out
>> the
>> client side pieces that are separately consumable. For example if you
>> don't want Git you can carve out that piece and use the rest of the
>> server. I think we would be fine with reorganizing the client side
>> and use
>> a different source layout as long as we maintained separation of
>> those
>> concerns. I.e., if you were interested in working on reorganizing the
>> client code that would be welcome!
> I may give a shot at that, something in lines of npm modules perhaps?
> I
> would not like to disturb the current momentum either so I guess it is
> best to come out with a solid proposal to discuss before anything.
>> As for the Java server technology, I guess "standard" is a loaded
>> term.
>> Java Servlets and OSGi are standards as much as JAX-RS. The question
>> is
>> what problem are we solving by moving to a different Java server side
>> technology? Is the main concern about barrier to contributors, or is
>> it
>> about consumability of the Java server on other Java EE application
>> servers? Or maybe both?
> Not much concern was expressed on deployment. Other than the missing
> pieces on node.js backend, which is an interesting option.  I can say
> that this is mostly about barriers to entry.

+1, the osgi, the forced needed usage of Eclipse IDE for development and
no real docs on how to build/reconfigure this is what keeps getting
to us as reasons they have not dived into Orion.

also orion-dev is awfully quiet :)

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