| Re: [jakartaee-platform-dev] Platform popularity |
Hi,This has become an interesting discussion. I also would like to share my view on this.I’m struggling to understand if the Survey report is not usable here, in which situation will it be? I think I’ll talk to the Jakarta EE WG/Marketing about this. See what they say.It’s indeed a shame that people have lost the attractiveness of Jakarta EE since the focus was mostly on the programming model in the past. The implementations, however, is where the innovation has happened. Unfortunately, this concept has not landed at most developers and they keep using other Java enterprise frameworks. Although developers funny enough rarely seem to grasp the truth that there are Jakarta EE specifications in the framework being used.That said, I’m still advocating vigorously for using Jakarta EE and MicroProfile with application servers because I can see the value in it, compared to using Spring for example. ESPECIALLY in the current cloud native world and ALSO in microservices and even serverless architectures.Nowadays the concept of PlatformOPS/Engineering is coming up and I love it. Because with Jakarta EE specifications you can build your app according to the provided programming model. Everything else is for running this app. So everything else is “platform”.Adam Bien is also advocating for these concepts. Reza Rahman is providing talks on how Microsoft is levering these concepts in Azure. Hell, I think I know what my next batch of conference sessions is going to be about. This! 😁To finish, I’m currently investigating where I can help my clients modernize their IT infrastructure and services with Jakarta EE and MP. Even when starting a new project, I will happily advocate using application servers if this is a fit, instead of just going with Spring because people expect me to.I’m looking forward to a beautiful future where Jakarta EE and MicroProfile provide the programming model for platforms that we use agnostically. I hope I have convinced you a little bit that there is value in using these technologies.PS: I know that it is perceived that breaking changes are bad practice within Jakarta EE and MicroProfile. However, looking at the industry, what’s the deal? Flexibility is necessary to keep up with market trends, so for me, let’s break things to make the technologies better. Don’t forget that Spring is breaking stuff all over the place. They are explaining how that works in their releases and everybody is fine with it. Me too, as long as I understand what can be expected to break.
I’m of course happy to continue the discussion.Kind regards,Edwin_______________________________________________On Sat, 3 Dec 2022 at 10:35, Romain Manni-Bucau <rmannibucau@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:Hi,I agree the poll data are not usable until you have the details you mention and the biase data have (sources).Until EE have a wider comm and more integration projects it will be hard to compete with anyone.However I disagree the lost of attractiveness is due to the lack of innovation but think most of it is due to the chain of breaking changes.EE is a home for abstraction - otherwise drop the multivendor part and stick to the monoimpl phylosophy (almost as in mp) - which means it can only be late behind vendor but it is ok cause most projects dont care but care about paying migration and it is where EE was great until it becomes jakarta.Today it is late, fat - and not profiles just add mess to the game cause consumers/libs dont know what they can rely on, and costly/uncertain in terms of future so why would it be attractive again?...I dont even speak about the tunnel effect ignoring all communities feedback (github is kind of a shame for some core projects).Giving back more stability and a more solid base would probably attract more without investment for the community just by matching business.Leading to innovation will fall back in pitfall the projects/platform are not designed to do so should hopefully stay apart - MP can be since it is designed to break consummer in its comm/contract._______________________________________________Le sam. 3 déc. 2022 à 06:57, Vano Beridze <vanuatoo@xxxxxxxxx> a écrit :We lost attractiveness - Oracle's delayed decision regarding Java EE 8, then donation to Eclipse, then holding on to Java EE trademark and related activities took really long time. Java EE was popular, because big names were behind it and actively pushing the agenda.The developers need to stick to something that's not only works but also evolving fastly, brings them joy and job safety.Jakarta EE 10 is a great achievement but if you compare it to Java EE 8, there are hardly any revolutionary changes. Java EE 8 was released 5 years ago.What we mostly do is to make sure platform changes don't affect existing user base, instead of thinking mostly how to become the popular again.What I propose to do is to have just two profiles:1. Full profile - which is there to support customers who plan to use legacy applications.2. Core Profile - which is where the exciting staff happens.We need to do identify specs which does not have future and completely stop investing in them.We need to combine forces with MicroProfile community, identify the set of specs which are critical to our success and bring them to life under one name as soon as possible.We need to start thinking how to create good onboarding environment for developers and stop relying on vendors to do that. Jakarta EE starter is the good place to expand, add more documentation, real use cases.We need to stop thinking that because Spring uses small number of specs, Jakarta EE is standard. Spring will never be Jakarta EE compatible and they could easily remove Jakarta EE reliance in one year if they wanted to.Other popular frameworks also are not Jakarta EE compatible and if we want them to be, there should be drastic changes in how we do things. With the current process and dynamics I'm afraid in 5 years there will be proprietary frameworks and Jakarta EE as the failed attempt to have standard in Enterprise Java._______________________________________________On Fri, Dec 2, 2022, 11:04 PM arjan tijms <arjan.tijms@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:_______________________________________________HiOn Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 7:22 PM Vano Beridze <vanuatoo@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:I hardly imagine a situation where Jakarta EE will be chosen over Spring Boot or Quarkus if somebody is going to create a microservice.It might help us a lot if you were able to give some specifics about the reasons why you can't imagine that.Kind regards,Arjan Tijms
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