Emily, I am personally not convinced with this rationale. TCKs are a part of specifications. It’s logical that ‘jakarta’ package is used there. We are jumping to actions too fast. Nothing is ‘forbidden’ so far.
-- Dmitry
From: jakartaee-platform-dev <jakartaee-platform-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>
On Behalf Of Emily Jiang via jakartaee-platform-dev
Sent: 10 January 2022 19:08
To: jakartaee-platform developer discussions <jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: Emily Jiang <emijiang6@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [jakartaee-platform-dev] [External] : Re: Standardizing new TCK packages (was:package prefixes for Jakarta Batch TCK-related classes?org.eclipse.ee4j.batch ?)
The reasoning was mentioned in this mailing list thread as part of conversation.
On 1/10/22 6:31 PM, Emily Jiang via jakartaee-platform-dev wrote:
> Hi Lukas,
>
> In your scenario, since you are using the forbidden package naming
> convention, I think it should be updated for Jakarta EE 10.
Who and when has forbidden it?
thanks,
--lukas
> Before the voting is over, you can choose one of the options in the list
> and go from there.
> Thanks
> Emily
>
> On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 5:21 PM Lukas Jungmann
> <lukas.jungmann@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:lukas.jungmann@xxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
>
> On 1/10/22 5:54 PM, Thomas Watson wrote:
> > +1
> > So far we have only agreed that for Jakarta 10 the jakarta.* package
> > name must NOT be used. Ideally we would have a vote so that any new
> > TCKs for Jakarta 10 would be able to use an agreed package name,
> but I
> > don't think we should delay anything for Jakarta 10 outside of
> not allow
> > jakarta.* be used for TCK packages.
>
> just to make sure I understand this - in jsonp-tck which has been
> extracted from the platform repo to jsonp repo, tests were moved to
> `jakarta.jsonp.tck` package and the TCK as such is considered almost
> complete. We have one pending PR there + final review pending before
> turning the draft spec PR into the regular one. Are we really required
> to refactor everything at this stage again?
>
> --lukas
>
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > ----- Original message -----
> > From: "Emily Jiang via jakartaee-platform-dev"
> > <jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
> > Sent by: "jakartaee-platform-dev"
> > <jakartaee-platform-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
> > To: "jakartaee-platform developer discussions"
> > <jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
> > Cc: "Emily Jiang" <emijiang6@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:emijiang6@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
> > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [jakartaee-platform-dev]
> Standardizing new
> > TCK packages (was:package prefixes for Jakarta Batch TCK-related
> > classes?org.eclipse.ee4j.batch ?)
> > Date: Mon, Jan 10, 2022 10:22 AM
> > Hi Scott,
> > My responses are inline below.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Emily
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 4:14 PM Scott Marlow
> <smarlow@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:smarlow@xxxxxxxxxx>
> > <mailto:smarlow@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:smarlow@xxxxxxxxxx>>> wrote:
> >
> > On 1/6/22 4:51 PM, David Blevins wrote:
> >> It sounds like we're all coming to agreement and we're
> down to
> >> just picking the name. To Nathan's point, being quick
> is key.
> >>
> >> Here's a proposal on how to wrap this up:
> >>
> >> - We give till Monday 8am Pacific for people to suggest a
> >> package prefix that does not start with "jakarta"
> >>
> >> - On Monday we start a 72-hour rank choice vote here on the
> >> mailing list.
> >>
> >> - If the chosen option needs to be eliminated for any
> reason,
> >> we go to the second choice, etc. No new vote necessary
> (yay,
> >> ranked choice).
> >>
> >> - The chosen prefix would be a recommendation for
> Jakarta EE
> >> 10 and a requirement for Jakarta EE 11. TCK classes from
> >> Jakarta EE 9.x and before are exempt, though we may chose to
> >> have a separate discussion to change them at some point.
> >
> > Will the vote be for recommending that new TCK tests to
> be added
> > to EE 10 will use the package prefix?
> >
> > I think if possible, use the agreed package prefix. If not,
> leave
> > it for now. I think the minimum is not to use jakarta.*
> prefix as it
> > might cause issues.
> >
> > Will the vote be for requiring that new TCK tests to be
> added to
> > EE 11 will use the package prefix?
> >
> > Jakarta EE 11 new TCKs must use the new namespace.
> >
> > Scott
> >
> >> Unless there are other proposals, I'll kick that vote off on
> >> Monday.
> >>
> >>
> >> -David
> >>
> >>> On Jan 6, 2022, at 10:51 AM, Nathan Rauh
> >>> <nathan.rauh@xxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:nathan.rauh@xxxxxxxxxx>> <mailto:nathan.rauh@xxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:nathan.rauh@xxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Emily,
> >>>
> >>> To answer your question, it's an existing TCK that we are
> >>> porting from the platform into the the particular spec
> >>> project where we are also adding new test cases to
> cover the
> >>> function that is new in EE 10. The developer working
> on the
> >>> TCK port overachieved and had renamed the packages from
> >>> whatever they were previously to jakarta.*, and then others
> >>> of us when adding new tests used the same package to match
> >>> the ported tests. To reiterate what stated in my
> reply, this
> >>> is not going to be a concern for TomEE and others
> because I'm
> >>> agreeing to get the TCK off of the jakarta.* packages
> for EE
> >>> 10 - just not to wait for the outcome of what will be
> the new
> >>> convention because that would set us back too far.
> Given the
> >>> number of positive replies to that, I already have a
> pull in
> >>> place to do so and have notified several other spec
> >>> participants who have new TCK tests that they are writing
> >>> currently in progress so that can use a different
> package. I
> >>> appreciate the quick replies from everyone - this is a case
> >>> where being able to take decisive action right away
> >>> definitely lessens the impact.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> From: "Romain Manni-Bucau"
> <rmannibucau@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:rmannibucau@xxxxxxxxx>>
> >>> <mailto:rmannibucau@xxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:rmannibucau@xxxxxxxxx>>
> >>> To: "jakartaee-platform developer discussions"
> >>> <jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
> >>> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
> >>> Date: 01/06/2022 12:18 PM
> >>> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [jakartaee-platform-dev]
> >>> Standardizing new TCK packages (was:package prefixes for
> >>> Jakarta Batch TCK-related classes?org.eclipse.ee4j.batch ?)
> >>> Sent by: "jakartaee-platform-dev"
> >>> <jakartaee-platform-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
> >>> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Just want to remind we don't speak about some issue with
> >>> implementations - typically TomEE has a "toggle" to
> solve it
> >>> - but with the spec which forbids it so it means that using
> >>> jakarta.tck is forbidden by jakarta as quote earlier, in
> >>> particular cause most of TCK are ran in servlet context by
> >>> the TCK runner and it had been like that since years, I
> just
> >>> think javax -> jakarta (and more likely sun -> eclipse)
> move
> >>> missed that.
> >>>
> >>> So no choice to rename, it seems the options are:
> >>>
> >>> * jakarta.ee- from my point of view it comes from
> nowhere for
> >>> anyone not deeply involved in Jakarta,
> >>> * tck.jakarta - not very neat but works
> >>> * org.eclipse.jakarta.tck - I still think it is the most
> >>> consistent with what Jakarta is as of today.
> >>>
> >>> Agree existing spec (using org.jboss for ex) don't need to
> >>> move now, the only requirement is to not use
> >>> jakarta.something for anything which is actually
> deployed as
> >>> an application.
> >>>
> >>> Romain Manni-Bucau
> >>> @rmannibucau| Blog | Old Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Book
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Le jeu. 6 janv. 2022 à 18:50, Emily Jiang via
> >>> jakartaee-platform-dev
> <jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
> >>> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>> a écrit :
> >>> Nathan,
> >>> Which Jakarta spec tcks already used this package starting
> >>> with jakarta.*? Is this change new for Jakarta EE 10 or
> >>> already released in the earlier Jakarta EE release? If
> it was
> >>> released before, then it is not an issue. If it is a new
> >>> change, will this be a concern for TomEE as mentioned
> by David?
> >>>
> >>> When TomEE (might be others) comes to run the tck, it might
> >>> cause issues. David, any thoughts on this? If it is the
> case,
> >>> it might be ok to choose a different package such as
> >>> ee.jakarta or jakartatck etc.
> >>>
> >>> By the way, the new naming convention is for new specs. The
> >>> existing specs should adopt it in the subsequent release EE
> >>> 11 once we have reached agreement on which name to use.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks
> >>> Emily
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 3:41 PM Nathan Rauh
> >>> <nathan.rauh@xxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:nathan.rauh@xxxxxxxxxx>> <mailto:nathan.rauh@xxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:nathan.rauh@xxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
> >>> This discussion is concerning because one of the Jakarta
> >>> specs that I'm working on and which is already cutting
> it too
> >>> close making the EE 10 release is unfortunately using
> >>> jakarta.* package names for TCK classes, and now it's going
> >>> to need to change, further compromising our chances of
> >>> getting into EE 10. The chosen package name doesn't matter
> >>> to me, nor does whether or not there is standardization
> >>> across TCKs. What does matter (to this spec at least) is
> >>> getting a decision made quickly, but I don't foresee a
> >>> decision on this being reached anytime soon given the many
> >>> widely varying opinions that will likely eventually
> become a
> >>> vote, itself with a sufficient period of time for votes
> to be
> >>> collected and all of that. It's just way too late into
> EE 10
> >>> for adding a new requirement like this, and I'm going to
> >>> suggest that it apply to EE 11 instead, with the
> >>> understanding that for EE 10, we'll at least get off of the
> >>> jakarta.* package name in the tck to something else and
> then
> >>> align with whatever you decide in EE 11. Unless anyone
> >>> objects, that's what I'll plan on doing.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> From: "Werner Keil" <werner.keil@xxxxxxx
> <mailto:werner.keil@xxxxxxx>>
> >>> <mailto:werner.keil@xxxxxxx <mailto:werner.keil@xxxxxxx>>
> >>> To: "jakartaee-platform developer discussions"
> >>> <jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
> >>> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
> >>> Date: 01/06/2022 09:20 AM
> >>> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [jakartaee-platform-dev]
> >>> Standardizing new TCK packages (was:package prefixes for
> >>> Jakarta Batch TCK-related classes?org.eclipse.ee4j.batch ?)
> >>> Sent by: "jakartaee-platform-dev"
> >>> <jakartaee-platform-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
> >>> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
> >>>
> >>> At least org.glassfish still seems to be used.
> >>>
> >>> Werner
> >>>
> >>> Gesendet von Mailfür Windows
> >>>
> >>> Von: Mike Milinkovich
> >>> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 6. Januar 2022 15:24
> >>> An:
jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
> >>> Betreff: Re: [jakartaee-platform-dev] Standardizing new TCK
> >>> packages (was:package prefixes for Jakarta Batch
> TCK-related
> >>> classes?org.eclipse.ee4j.batch ?)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I would like to point out that we do not use "org" anywhere
> >>> with Jakarta at the moment. We do not own the
> >>> jakarta.orgdomain name, for example. We do own and use the
> >>> jakarta.eedomain name.
> >>> From my perspective, starting to use the .org TLD with
> >>> Jakarta for this purpose might be confusing.
> >>> On 2022-01-06 9:09 a.m., Scott Kurz wrote:
> >>>
> >>> +1 fororg.jakartatck.*
> >>> (though OK with the other options)
> >>>
> >>> Thanks David for making that an option and thanks all for
> >>> giving this some thought. Even though not too many
> people
> >>> look at a TCK relatively speaking it seemed better to
> be good
> >>> Java citizens and use a package of a domain name we own.
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------------------------------
> >>> Scott Kurz
> >>> WebSphere / Open Liberty Batch and Developer Experience
> >>> skurz@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:skurz@xxxxxxxxxx>
> <mailto:skurz@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:skurz@xxxxxxxxxx>>
> >>> --------------------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> "Emily Jiang via jakartaee-platform-dev" ---01/06/2022
> >>> 05:16:41 AM---Thank you David for the detailed
> explanation! I
> >>> now understood the concern. The following package na
> >>>
> >>> From: "Emily Jiang via jakartaee-platform-dev"
> >>> <jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
> >>> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
> >>> To: "jakartaee-platform developer discussions"
> >>> <jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
> >>> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
> >>> Cc: "Emily Jiang" <emijiang6@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:emijiang6@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
> >>> <mailto:emijiang6@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:emijiang6@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
> >>> Date: 01/06/2022 05:16 AM
> >>> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [jakartaee-platform-dev]
> >>> Standardizing new TCK packages (was: package prefixes for
> >>> Jakarta Batch TCK-related classes?
> org.eclipse.ee4j.batch ?)
> >>> Sent by: "jakartaee-platform-dev"
> >>> <jakartaee-platform-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
> >>> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
> >>> <Mail Attachment.png>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Thank you David for the detailed explanation! I now
> >>> understood the concern.
> >>> The following package name might work:
> >>>
> >>> -- tck.jakarta.<spec>.
> >>>
> >>> In all, we could choose one from the list
> >>>
> >>> org.jakartatck.*
> >>> ee.jakarta.tck.*
> >>> tck.jakarta.*
> >>>
> >>> Thanks
> >>> Emily
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 12:09 AM David Blevins
> >>> <dblevins@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:dblevins@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> <mailto:dblevins@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:dblevins@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
> >>> I think I finally see what Romain is talking about.
> >>>
> >>> I know in TomEE we have several optimizations to try and
> >>> speed up deployment and bytecode scanning. We'll
> filter out
> >>> jars that match patterns like log4j-*, openejb-*,
> jakarta-*.
> >>> Those jars are removed from the list of jars that could
> >>> potentially contain applications and they'll never be
> >>> searched for annotations like @Singleton, etc.
> Additionally,
> >>> as everyone uses somewhat expensive bytecode readers
> like ASM
> >>> to parse bytecode and scan for annotations, we have
> >>> additional filters to skip non-application classes, such as
> >>> javax.* and jakarta.*. There are classloader related
> actions
> >>> as well.
> >>>
> >>> Here's an example we hit in EclipseLink when we tried
> to use
> >>> the Eclipse Transformer to do the javax-to-jakarta change.
> >>>
> >>> -
> >>>
> https://github.com/eclipse-ee4j/eclipselink/blame/master/jpa/org.eclipse.persistence.jpa/src/main/java/org/eclipse/persistence/internal/jpa/deployment/JavaSECMPInitializer.java#L345
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/eclipse-ee4j/eclipselink/blame/master/jpa/org.eclipse.persistence.jpa/src/main/java/org/eclipse/persistence/internal/jpa/deployment/JavaSECMPInitializer.java*L345__;Iw!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!eu3KTIht_ntlZHp8L5nZ6L9RehRavNLMbBj122ytUx4U60KJ7lRVg_x1V2Y47wm6lhg$>
> >>>
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/eclipse-ee4j/eclipselink/blame/master/jpa/org.eclipse.persistence.jpa/src/main/java/org/eclipse/persistence/internal/jpa/deployment/JavaSECMPInitializer.java*L345__;Iw!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!cn8X0yvU3tEbaXf3WeZi58uAGoWiyL4tLW1L6wI-c6XOiGzzbP2ZquzEDJNUwSZ-fdQ$
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/eclipse-ee4j/eclipselink/blame/master/jpa/org.eclipse.persistence.jpa/src/main/java/org/eclipse/persistence/internal/jpa/deployment/JavaSECMPInitializer.java*L345__;Iw!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!cn8X0yvU3tEbaXf3WeZi58uAGoWiyL4tLW1L6wI-c6XOiGzzbP2ZquzEDJNUwSZ-fdQ$>>
> >>>
> >>> We were transforming EclipseLink 2.x which did not have the
> >>> `!name.startsWith("jakarta.")` string check, so jakarta.*
> >>> classes were getting loaded as application classes and
> >>> causing most tests to fail. We hit this in a few different
> >>> libraries and ended up having to patch source to ensure
> >>> "jakarta." and "Ljakarta/" were factored into any code that
> >>> checked for "javax." as a package or "Ljavax/" as bytecode.
> >>>
> >>> If we started putting the TCK tests in "jakarta.tck"
> and that
> >>> also included the test applications we need to deploy and
> >>> verify, that definitely will cause issues in a handful of
> >>> component implementations we all use.
> >>>
> >>> The only way to handle it would be to update code like this
> >>> to have an exclusion that explicitly checks for
> "jakarta.tck"
> >>> and ensures it is treated as user-created application code
> >>> and bypasses any "javax" or "jakarta" checks. That's going
> >>> to mean there'll be code in our implementations that says
> >>> essentially "if your code starts with jakarta.tck,
> make sure
> >>> it's treated correctly, otherwise do something else." That
> >>> could be a slippery slope.
> >>>
> >>> It's probably better if we don't put ourselves in a
> situation
> >>> were we have to write code to specially handle TCK
> applications.
> >>>
> >>> It occurs to be in writing this that literally any
> characters
> >>> before "jakarta" solves this issue. If we want a short
> name,
> >>> we do own the jakarta.eedomain and can potentially use
> either
> >>> of these:
> >>>
> >>> - ee.jakarta.*
> >>> - ee.jakarta.tck.*
> >>>
> >>> I also just looked and jakartatck.orgwas available, so I
> >>> purchased that and we could potentially use:
> >>>
> >>> - org.jakartatck.*
> >>>
> >>> If we wanted to go that direction, I'd just transfer
> >>> jakartatck.orgto the Working Group like I did when
> purchased
> >>>
jakarta.ee
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://jakarta.ee__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!eu3KTIht_ntlZHp8L5nZ6L9RehRavNLMbBj122ytUx4U60KJ7lRVg_x1V2Y4w5M6yQE$>
> >>>
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://jakarta.ee__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!cn8X0yvU3tEbaXf3WeZi58uAGoWiyL4tLW1L6wI-c6XOiGzzbP2ZquzEDJNUW4WLeak$
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://jakarta.ee__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!cn8X0yvU3tEbaXf3WeZi58uAGoWiyL4tLW1L6wI-c6XOiGzzbP2ZquzEDJNUW4WLeak$>>.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> David Blevins
> >>>
http://twitter.com/dblevins
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://twitter.com/dblevins__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!eu3KTIht_ntlZHp8L5nZ6L9RehRavNLMbBj122ytUx4U60KJ7lRVg_x1V2Y4wu3YAjo$>
> >>>
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://twitter.com/dblevins__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!cn8X0yvU3tEbaXf3WeZi58uAGoWiyL4tLW1L6wI-c6XOiGzzbP2ZquzEDJNUCsNz8Ac$
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://twitter.com/dblevins__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!cn8X0yvU3tEbaXf3WeZi58uAGoWiyL4tLW1L6wI-c6XOiGzzbP2ZquzEDJNUCsNz8Ac$>>
> >>>
http://www.tomitribe.com
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.tomitribe.com__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!eu3KTIht_ntlZHp8L5nZ6L9RehRavNLMbBj122ytUx4U60KJ7lRVg_x1V2Y4yJfThqE$>
> >>>
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.tomitribe.com__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!cn8X0yvU3tEbaXf3WeZi58uAGoWiyL4tLW1L6wI-c6XOiGzzbP2ZquzEDJNUFDHi1o4$
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.tomitribe.com__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!cn8X0yvU3tEbaXf3WeZi58uAGoWiyL4tLW1L6wI-c6XOiGzzbP2ZquzEDJNUFDHi1o4$>>
> >>>> On Jan 5, 2022, at 1:19 PM, Thomas Watson
> >>>> <tjwatson@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:tjwatson@xxxxxxxxxx>>
> <mailto:tjwatson@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:tjwatson@xxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Just to make sure I understand you. Are you
> suggesting that
> >>>> an application class loader for the old Java EE (e.g. Java
> >>>> EE 8) must not allow not allow an application (WAR) to
> >>>> package and load any classes from javax.* which they
> >>>> contain. For example, no application server should
> allow an
> >>>> application to contain and successfully load
> javax.foo.Bar?
> >>>> And now that we are in the jakarta.* namespace no
> >>>> application server should allow an application to package
> >>>> and load a jakarta.foo.Bar class? What about javax
> now that
> >>>> we are jakarta, can applications in Jakarta 9 now
> >>>> successfully include and load javax.foo.Bar?
> >>>>
> >>>> I have to say this is news to me, and I do not believe
> that
> >>>> is the way most application servers behave.
> >>>>
> >>>> Tom
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original message -----
> >>>> From: "Romain Manni-Bucau" <rmannibucau@xxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:rmannibucau@xxxxxxxxx>>
> >>>> <mailto:rmannibucau@xxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:rmannibucau@xxxxxxxxx>>
> >>>> Sent by: "jakartaee-platform-dev"
> >>>> <jakartaee-platform-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
> >>>> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
> >>>> To: "jakartaee-platform developer discussions"
> >>>> <jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
> >>>> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
> >>>> Cc:
> >>>> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [jakartaee-platform-dev]
> >>>> Standardizing new TCK packages (was: package prefixes for
> >>>> Jakarta Batch TCK-related classes?
> org.eclipse.ee4j.batch ?)
> >>>> Date: Wed, Jan 5, 2022 2:09 PM
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Le mer. 5 janv. 2022 à 20:37, Thomas Watson
> >>>> <tjwatson@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:tjwatson@xxxxxxxxxx>>
> <mailto:tjwatson@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:tjwatson@xxxxxxxxxx>> a écrit :
> >>>>> If you want one example, servlet 10.7.2 (for v4.0 to take
> >>>>> one example) explicit it and for good technical
> reasons so
> >>>>> it is a "must stay" but it implies TCK shouldn't
> reuse the
> >>>>> same package by design and as it always had been so
> it let
> >>>>> you org.eclipse for projects without an historical
> package
> >>>>> (guess it is more than fine to keep the existing one when
> >>>>> it is there).
> >>>> In no way do I see how that section of the v4.0
> servlet spec
> >>>> says anything about jakarta.*. That package didn't
> exist in
> >>>> v4. For v5 we have:
> >>>>
> https://jakarta.ee/specifications/servlet/5.0/jakarta-servlet-spec-5.0.html#web-application-class-loader
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://jakarta.ee/specifications/servlet/5.0/jakarta-servlet-spec-5.0.html*web-application-class-loader__;Iw!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!eu3KTIht_ntlZHp8L5nZ6L9RehRavNLMbBj122ytUx4U60KJ7lRVg_x1V2Y4VXzN6nQ$>
> >>>>
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://jakarta.ee/specifications/servlet/5.0/jakarta-servlet-spec-5.0.html*web-application-class-loader__;Iw!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!cn8X0yvU3tEbaXf3WeZi58uAGoWiyL4tLW1L6wI-c6XOiGzzbP2ZquzEDJNU5GWZKBU$
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> >>>>
> >>>> Here I think you are referring to this sentence:
> >>>>
> >>>> "Servlet containers that are not part of a Jakarta EE
> >>>> product should not allow the application to override
> Jakarta
> >>>> EE platform classes, such as those in the jakarta.*
> >>>> namespaces, that Jakarta EE does not allow to be
> modified."
> >>>>
> >>>> TCK classes are not considered platform classes, they are
> >>>> TCK classes. I don't see how this sentence applies to a
> >>>> possible jakarta.tck package.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> This is true for part of the tck but most of them are
> >>>> *applications* (servlet for a trivial example,
> everything in
> >>>> war/ear for another one).
> >>>> Just stated what we have and do - and to be honest it is
> >>>> normal otherwise tck wouldnt validate compliance using a
> >>>> custom packaging ;).
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Tom
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original message -----
> >>>> From: "Romain Manni-Bucau" <rmannibucau@xxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:rmannibucau@xxxxxxxxx>>
> >>>> <mailto:rmannibucau@xxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:rmannibucau@xxxxxxxxx>>
> >>>> Sent by: "jakartaee-platform-dev"
> >>>> <jakartaee-platform-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
> >>>> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
> >>>> To: "Emily Jiang" <emijiang6@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:emijiang6@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
> >>>> <mailto:emijiang6@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:emijiang6@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
> >>>> Cc: "jakartaee-platform developer discussions"
> >>>> <jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
> >>>> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
> >>>> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [jakartaee-platform-dev]
> >>>> Standardizing new TCK packages (was: package prefixes for
> >>>> Jakarta Batch TCK-related classes?
> org.eclipse.ee4j.batch ?)
> >>>> Date: Wed, Jan 5, 2022 10:09 AM
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Le mer. 5 janv. 2022 à 16:37, Emily Jiang
> >>>> <emijiang6@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:emijiang6@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
> >>>> <mailto:emijiang6@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:emijiang6@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> a écrit :
> >>>> @Romain Manni-Bucau
> >>>> I must have misunderstood your question. Let me try again
> >>>> to clarify this:
> >>>> 1. what's the plan about the spec saying jakarta.*
> should be
> >>>> excluded from the applications (which means it cant be
> used
> >>>> by TCK)?
> >>>> I disagree with what you said jakarta.* can't be used
> by TCK
> >>>> because TCKs are part of specs and do not fall into the
> >>>> application category. Besides, can you point out which
> spec
> >>>> has this sentence? We need to discuss this further to see
> >>>> whether it is correct to say so if it does have this
> sentence.
> >>>>
> >>>> Ok so the consequence of you statement is that there is no
> >>>> application code in TCK, no CDI bean, no EJB, no
> servlet, no
> >>>> JSP etc... (which is not true right?) so TCK are mainly a)
> >>>> application code and b) test code (sometimes c) runner
> code
> >>>> but let's integrate it in b)).
> >>>>
> >>>> If you want one example, servlet 10.7.2 (for v4.0 to take
> >>>> one example) explicit it and for good technical reasons so
> >>>> it is a "must stay" but it implies TCK shouldn't reuse the
> >>>> same package by design and as it always had been so it let
> >>>> you org.eclipse for projects without an historical package
> >>>> (guess it is more than fine to keep the existing one
> when it
> >>>> is there).
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 2. What about user confusion? "not care" :(?
> >>>> Not sure what user confusion do you mean? TCKs are pretty
> >>>> much for implementers. Besides, I am not sure what
> >>>> confusions you are referring to. I think the namespace
> with
> >>>> jakarta.tck is clearer as it means the tck classes
> from Jakarta.
> >>>>
> >>>> As soon as you get the dependency in a dependency -
> you are
> >>>> an user by definition - then you can get issues if you use
> >>>> jakarta.
> >>>> It is also the case for end user - who never use tck
> package
> >>>> - on maven if they are released under jakarta groupId
> so as
> >>>> recommended in java ecosystem the groupId should be
> aligned
> >>>> on the package base name so likely use
> >>>> org.eclipse.jakarta.spec or alike. The risk is users start
> >>>> importing tck instead of the spec and application will
> work
> >>>> cause the spec comes transitively but it is not what
> jakarta
> >>>> wants, right? Making it clean is trivial and
> consistent with
> >>>> everything so I think it is worth not trying to be more
> >>>> clever than we need to.
> >>>>
> >>>> HTH
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 3:02 PM Romain Manni-Bucau
> >>>> <rmannibucau@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:rmannibucau@xxxxxxxxx>>
> <mailto:rmannibucau@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:rmannibucau@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
> >>>> @Emily: i know TCK are part of the spec as well as the
> API,
> >>>> javadoc and textual doc (pdf/word) but you didn't
> solve the
> >>>> 2 issues I mentionned (not even speaking of the
> >>>> inconsistency between the status and naming which is
> >>>> something very few will care except eclipse itself
> maybe) so
> >>>> not sure how the fact it is delivered as a whole
> solves the
> >>>> fact it is forbidden by spec to use this package.
> >>>>
> >>>> Romain Manni-Bucau
> >>>> @rmannibucau | Blog | Old Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Book
> >>>>
> >>>> Le mer. 5 janv. 2022 à 15:26, Emily Jiang
> >>>> <emijiang6@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:emijiang6@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
> >>>> <mailto:emijiang6@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:emijiang6@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> a écrit :
> >>>> Romain,
> >>>> TCKs are part of spec, as spec includes api/spec doc /tck.
> >>>> Thanks
> >>>> Emily
> >>>>
> >>>> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 1:48 PM Romain Manni-Bucau
> >>>> <rmannibucau@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:rmannibucau@xxxxxxxxx>>
> <mailto:rmannibucau@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:rmannibucau@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
> >>>> @Emily: what's the plan about the spec saying jakarta.*
> >>>> should be excluded from the applications (which means it
> >>>> cant be used by TCK)? What about user confusion? "not
> care" :(?
> >>>>
> >>>> Romain Manni-Bucau
> >>>> @rmannibucau | Blog | Old Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Book
> >>>>
> >>>> Le mer. 5 janv. 2022 à 14:31, Emily Jiang via
> >>>> jakartaee-platform-dev
> <jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
> >>>> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>> a écrit :
> >>>> We discussed the various package names including
> >>>> org.eclipse.*. The feedback is that TCKs should align with
> >>>> the corresponding spec. It is much nicer to start with
> >>>> jakarta.tck to denote the TCK classes and also easily to
> >>>> filter out with pattern matching when searching for api
> >>>> classes. Besides it is much shorter than
> org.eclipse.jakarta.
> >>>> In Jakarta Batch Tcks, you will use jakarta.tck.batch
> >>>> instead of org.eclipse.jakarta.tck.batch.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks
> >>>> Emily
> >>>>
> >>>> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 8:05 AM Romain Manni-Bucau
> >>>> <rmannibucau@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:rmannibucau@xxxxxxxxx>>
> <mailto:rmannibucau@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:rmannibucau@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
> >>>> As written on jbatch list I think it is normal and safe to
> >>>> use org.eclipse.<something like jakarta.spec or just spec>
> >>>> since jakarta specs are eclipse projects. It also has the
> >>>> advantage to not use jakarta.* package which is treated
> >>>> specifically by all implementations (by spec actually ;))
> >>>> and would need some specific rules in the impl is used for
> >>>> tcks too which is not the target of the spec at all.
> Lastly
> >>>> it makes it obvious it is not part of the API for users so
> >>>> it is very good too. For me, it looks like a
> consistent and
> >>>> good compromise for everyone (foundation, users,
> vendors and
> >>>> spec contributors/legal).
> >>>>
> >>>> Romain Manni-Bucau
> >>>> @rmannibucau | Blog | Old Blog | Github | LinkedIn | Book
> >>>>
> >>>> Le mer. 5 janv. 2022 à 08:23, Jean-Louis Monteiro
> >>>> <jlmonteiro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jlmonteiro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
> >>>> <mailto:jlmonteiro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jlmonteiro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> a écrit :
> >>>> Sounds like a good improvement to me as well
> >>>>
> >>>> Le mar. 4 janv. 2022 à 22:00, David Blevins
> >>>> <dblevins@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:dblevins@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> <mailto:dblevins@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:dblevins@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> a
> >>>> écrit :
> >>>>> On Jan 4, 2022, at 12:23 PM, Emily Jiang via
> >>>>> jakartaee-platform-dev
> <jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
> >>>>> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I had this matter discussed in today's platform call.
> Below
> >>>>> is the suggestion for the naming convention:
> >>>>> • [Emily] Package naming convention for TCKs?
> >>>>> • Packages for TCK starts with various
> names,
> >>>>> e.g. org.ibm, org.jboss, org.eclipse,
> jakarta.[spec].tck etc,
> >>>>> • Should they be standardized?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> • Two things need naming standard:
> >>>>> • Packages
> >>>>> • Suggested Naming Standard:
> >>>>> jakarta.tck.[spec]
> >>>>> • New classes in existing TCKs
> should
> >>>>> use the new name standard
> >>>>> • Artifacts
> >>>>> • Same group id as the spec
> >>>>> • Artifact ids [foo]-tck
> >>>>> • Existing TCKs may change if they like
> >>>>> New TCKs must use the new name standard
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The above is the general consensus from the meeting.
> I will
> >>>>> start a new thread conversation for others to comment on
> >>>>> the naming convention.
> >>>> Others can chime in, but I like the above recommendation.
> >>>> Using jakarta.tck.[spec] is just as good as
> >>>> org.eclipse.jakarta.tck.[spec], perhaps better.
> >>>>
> >>>> Also agree that it should be standard across the
> various TCKs.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -David
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
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> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
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> >>>>
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> >>>>
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> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Thanks
> >>>> Emily
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>> jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>> <mailto:jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
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> >>>>
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> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Thanks
> >>>> Emily
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Thanks
> >>>> Emily
> >>>>
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> >
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> > --
> > Thanks
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> >
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>
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