| Re: [jakarta.ee-community] Fork Eclipse MicroProfile Configuration as Jakarta Configuration. |
On Apr 6, 2020, at 1:43 PM, reza_rahman <reza_rahman@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Sorry we are having such a hard time understanding each other.
Let's start from the beginning and clarify some assumptions. I think it will be fairly clear pretty quickly where the differences in values are.
First, do you see the value in Java EE and Jakarta EE as open standards?
Secondly, do you acknowledge that MicroProfile is not an open standard today?
I don’t think the EF is a formal standards body (at least yet)? I would use similar descriptions for both: open source specs vs dejure standard, both divest more power in the contributor than a committee of industry reps.. Jakarta EE has a bit more structure and that MP could benefit from.
Thirdly, do you understand the concern why having two competing open standards is a very risky proposition for any ecosystem?
I don’t see them as competing, rather serving different audiences / use-cases. Projects can always use both together. Although of course if everything is forked thats going to make that harder.
I will urge you again, however that this is a mailing list with many people probably with busy lives. We should learn to understand when a point of diminishing returns has been reached and there is no possibility of reconciliation because the values gap is simply too great
Sure. thread count is getting up there :) Thanks for the dialogue.
-Jason
_______________________________________________Reza RahmanJakarta EE Ambassador, Author, Blogger, Speaker
Please note views expressed here are my own as an individual community member and do not reflect the views of my employer.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------From: Jason Greene <jason.greene@xxxxxxxxxx>Date: 4/6/20 2:09 PM (GMT-05:00)To: Jakarta EE community discussions <jakarta.ee-community@xxxxxxxxxxx>Subject: Re: [jakarta.ee-community] Fork Eclipse MicroProfile Configuration as Jakarta Configuration.
That’s just it. It’s still not completely clear to me what the source of the disagreement is. When you repeat statements like all specs should all go in EE and not MP because EE is credible, you are literally saying MicroProfile is not credible, its not open, etc. Since, that’s not true it leaves me guessing as to why that’s your perception. I don’t doubt you have your reasons, and to be fair my branding is a guess, but its really because thats the only element I can put my finger on.
On Apr 6, 2020, at 12:38 PM, reza_rahman <reza_rahman@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
_______________________________________________I guess I am sorry you feel that way.
If any of what I stated needs to be clarified further I am happy to put in the time to do so. I do think however that we need to recognize when a point of diminishing returns has been reached and we need to agree to disagree respectfully. In your case, it may simply be that we have very different value sets that cannot be reconciled.
What I can tell you is that every opinion I have expressed is genuine, well considered, well vetted with other good intentioned people and within reason grounded in reality.
I appreciate the dialog nonetheless.
Reza RahmanJakarta EE Ambassador, Author, Blogger, Speaker
Please note views expressed here are my own as an individual community member and do not reflect the views of my employer.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------From: Jason Greene <jason.greene@xxxxxxxxxx>Date: 4/6/20 1:09 PM (GMT-05:00)To: Jakarta EE community discussions <jakarta.ee-community@xxxxxxxxxxx>Subject: Re: [jakarta.ee-community] Fork Eclipse MicroProfile Configuration as Jakarta Configuration.
On Apr 6, 2020, at 11:03 AM, reza_rahman <reza_rahman@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I think you might be oversimplifying a bit.
What I and many others would like to see is a unifying, strong, cohesive, credible, vendor neutral open standard for Javathat enables all kind of non-standard innovation in the ecosystem including MicroProfile, Quarkus, Spring, Micronaut and so much more. Any other model in my view is less effective, unnecessary, confusing and risky.
I hope that helps explain my perspective?Not really since none of this is actually concrete, and frankly is border-line FUD.
_______________________________________________
Reza RahmanJakarta EE Ambassador, Author, Blogger, Speaker
Please note views expressed here are my own as an individual community member and do not reflect the views of my employer.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message --------From: Jason Greene <jason.greene@xxxxxxxxxx>Date: 4/6/20 11:31 AM (GMT-05:00)To: Jakarta EE community discussions <jakarta.ee-community@xxxxxxxxxxx>Subject: Re: [jakarta.ee-community] Fork Eclipse MicroProfile Configuration as Jakarta Configuration.
So it is all about the banner then?
On Apr 6, 2020, at 10:15 AM, reza_rahman <reza_rahman@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
_______________________________________________To be honest, what you are suggesting is even more worrisome. What it implies is that there will be two standardization models in enterprise Java that are highly duplicative and basically competing. That will hardly reduce the fragmentation, confusion and divisiveness. That is why many of us would like to see Jakarta become the unifying standardization model.
I would say this is all the more reason to fork and standardize right now.
Reza RahmanJakarta EE Ambassador, Author, Speaker, Blogger
Please note views expressed here are my own as an individual community member and do not reflect the views of my employer.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
First of MP is in the process of transitioning to the same standards-------- Original message --------From: Scott Stark <sstark@xxxxxxxxxx>Date: 4/6/20 10:40 AM (GMT-05:00)To: Jakarta EE community discussions <jakarta.ee-community@xxxxxxxxxxx>Subject: Re: [jakarta.ee-community] Fork Eclipse MicroProfile Configuration as Jakarta Configuration.
model as Jakarta, so it seems a little backhanded to ignore that. So
further standardization is some form of duplication of
standardization. Simply because other Jakarta members are not clear
that a fork is the best way to incorporate MP specs into Jakarta does
not mean we might eventually settle down to that. There were
discussions about employing an LTS model in MP, transitioning specs to
mature vs innovating, etc. in the pull thread discussion. Eventually
those will have to be compared against a simple fork, but this is an
EE10 timeframe discussion that is not a priority for me right now.
On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 6:41 AM reza_rahman <reza_rahman@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> I very much empathize with folks like Anthony as we are essentially in the same boat. One of the most frustrating aspects of MicroProfile is the radically changing goals that does not seem terribly consistent or entirely rational.
>
> My expectation has always been and remains that MicroProfile features that are mature enough will be properly standardized into Java/Jakarta EE - quite possibly into a new profile targeted for microservices. In no way do I see this diminishing the value of MicroProfile. Indeed historically standardizing features from any source typically enhances the value and usage for both the source and the open standard. I also can't think of any example of something being standardized "as-is" out of something that itself is not an open standard. I really have a hard time understanding why any of what Otavio is proposing is radical in any way from a rational, technical standpoint.
>
> With regards to the premature standadization viewpoint, it would be helpful to understand precisely what the short term roadmap is and why that work would not be appropriate to do within an open standard effort instead of an open source project that isn't an open standard and probably should never aim to be due to it's explicit focus on innovation.
>
> Are there other unstated factors at play behind the objections to further standardization? If so, why not state them explicitly so they can be evaluated and discussed?
>
> Reza Rahman
> Jakarta EE Ambassador, Author, Blogger, Speaker
>
_______________________________________________
jakarta.ee-community mailing list
jakarta.ee-community@xxxxxxxxxxx
To unsubscribe from this list, visit https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/jakarta.ee-community
jakarta.ee-community mailing list
jakarta.ee-community@xxxxxxxxxxx
To unsubscribe from this list, visit https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/jakarta.ee-community
jakarta.ee-community mailing list
jakarta.ee-community@xxxxxxxxxxx
To unsubscribe from this list, visit https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/jakarta.ee-community
jakarta.ee-community mailing list
jakarta.ee-community@xxxxxxxxxxx
To unsubscribe from this list, visit https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/jakarta.ee-community
jakarta.ee-community mailing list
jakarta.ee-community@xxxxxxxxxxx
To unsubscribe from this list, visit https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/jakarta.ee-community
_______________________________________________ jakarta.ee-community mailing list jakarta.ee-community@xxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe from this list, visit https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/jakarta.ee-community