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Re: [ide-dev] Java IDEs comparison

I agree with Bruno and mostly with original post author except the conclusions.

IMHO *the* main issue was that IBM took almost all contributors from Eclipse because of their "Cloud" strategy change (Jazz, Orion etc). That move caused and explains most of other problems.

1) e4 code quality was/is abysmal (no reviews? and a high pressure to deliver something?). I can't believe it could happen if we would still have all the old IBM people on board.
2) p2 is complex, true, but it works ways better then e4. What it lacks is the good documentation and man power to maintain it / drive it forward. We have one active committer left on p2 AFAIK.
3) No product. After IBM left development to the community, we simply had no resources anymore to set common "product quality" goals and priorities for the development, and to ensure overall quality. Performance tests? Switched off because lack of resources. UI guidelines? Not updated due lack of resources, etc...
4) UI is ugly. Absolutely agree. With each release till 4.x Eclipse UI was prettier. Now to get it kind of "OK" one has to disable themes.

I wish we would get IBM man power back, and hope some other big player could invest more, but this is obviously not realistic. Everyone does "cloud" or "apps" today, desktop is not interesting anymore. I don't have a solution for that except that everyone who cares starts to contribute.
Kind regards,
Andrey Loskutov

Gesendet: Mittwoch, 14. September 2016 um 16:34 Uhr
Von: "Bruno Medeiros" <>
An: "Discussions about the IDE" <ide-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Betreff: Re: [ide-dev] Java IDEs comparison

On 13 September 2016 at 23:31, Patrik Suzzi <psuzzi@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:Hi All,

I just read a post entitled "The fall of Eclipse" -[].
I don't know about the actual usage statistics for Eclipse and IntelliJ, but I very much agree with all the points he raises in the article:

1. Eclipse 4
Yes, this was the beginning of the end.
4.0 and 4.1 series of Eclipse were buggy as hell, unusable for me even for just core Java and PDE work. I only switched from 3.x to 4.x when Eclipse 4.2 was out, and even then it was bumpy.
CSS/theming engine was a failure and massive waste of time, at least for IDE (dunno about RCP). See point 4.
Other e4 technologies were also of questionable value, IMO. Dependency injection? I've never used them in the IDEs I've development. Did it bring significant improvements to technical quality of the IDE?
There there was p2:
2. Equinox P2
Ok, this wasn't as bad as CSS/theming, it works fairly well nowadays (I think? Others might disagree). But it was still another massive investment and breaking change that cost adopters time and effort. Was it worth it in the end? Maybe, I'm not in a position to judge. But other more important aspects were forsaken in the wake of this.
4. Ugly as sin
True. Since Eclipse 4, I've always configured Eclipse to look like the classic theme. Including manually have to tinker with .e4css/ files to restore traditional style tabs. Nowadays, with Eclipse Neon, I just have the theming engine completely disabled. Good riddance.
3. Not a product
True as well, in the sense that there is no proper product director/manager and product vision. This was mentioned before in this thread, see Doug's comments on "product focused organization", etc.[]_______________________________________________ ide-dev mailing list ide-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit[]

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