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Re: [] RE: [cross-project-issues-dev] Feedback on the europa update site

I will take the opportunity of this thread to add 2 remarks.

1 - Regarding the way feature / projects are exposed to end-user via the Update Site, I agree with Dejan.
We should keep things simple and group features at a high level.
Current display  - grouped by activity - is OK for me
May be we could imagine a new display option, which could toggle the display from a normal (current) way to an "advanced" way,
in order to be able to pick-up such or such plugin/version

2 - OK I installed all europa features, but found now that I may not use some of these.
Go to the Manage Configuration page, expand my europa config. Attached is the current display:
A nice to have feature would be to have the installed features / projects displayed grouped as they already are on the update site.
Current display is a bit messy, and it might become difficult to deactivate / uninstall some features individually.


Developer, Eclipse JDT Core
69, rue de la Vecquerie, 44600 Saint Nazaire
Phone : +33-(0)2 51 16 40 49  / 87 40 49 - Mobile +33-(0)6 70 75 76 83
e-Mail : eric_jodet@xxxxxxxxxx

Dejan Glozic <dejan@xxxxxxxxxx>
Sent by: cross-project-issues-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx

06/04/2007 08:08 PM

Please respond to
Cross project issues <cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>

Christian Damus <cdamus@xxxxxxxxxx>
Cross project issues <cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "" <>
Re: [] RE:        [cross-project-issues-dev]        Feedback on the europa update site

I would like to try to shed some light on two relationships supported by
Update Manager: 'includes' and 'requires':

  When a feature 'includes' another feature, it makes it part of its
  hierarchy. Including represents aggregation - included features are
  building blocks of the root feature. If only the root feature is
  interesting to the end-users, only the root feature should be exposed in
  A feature may also 'require' another feature, which implies
  precondition. The required feature is not part of the depending feature
  hierarchy but is a precondition for the feature to be installed.

Here is how 'Select Required' works: it will try to find the required
feature listed explicitly in site.xml. If that fails, it will try to find
the explicitly listed feature that INCLUDES the desired feature and select
it instead. If more than one candidate is found, 'Select Required' will
pick one that is smaller.

When only a few features are listed in site.xml, the effect is similar to
option bundles when car shopping - in order to get the sunroof, you must
buy the 'luxury' package with leather and alloy wheels :-). On the other
hand, listing ALL the features in site.xml may be too confusing to people.

I recommend to focus on what most people will want from Europa - pick some
high-value feature combinations and expose them in site.xml. If my feature
Foo requires something from EMF that is not explicitly listed in site.xml,
it will pick the smallest EMF 'root' feature that includes it. The overhead
(additional features I didn't ask for) is not a problem as long as it is
not significant.


Dejan Glozic, Ph.D.
Manager, Eclipse Development 1A
IBM Canada Ltd.
Tel. 905 413-2745  T/L 969-2745
Fax. 905 413-4850

            06/04/2007 01:18          ""      
            PM                        <
                                      "Cross project issues"              
                                      rg>, Dejan Glozic/Toronto/IBM@IBMCA
                                      Re: []  
                                      RE: [cross-project-issues-dev]      
                                      Feedback on the europa update site  
                                      (Document link: Dejan Glozic)      

As an example, the EMF-QTV components are contributed to Europa as a pair
of features:

   Eclipse Modeling Framework Data Integrity Frameworks Extender SDK
   Eclipse Modeling Framework Data Integrity Frameworks End-User Features

Both of these comprise, respectively, the SDK and Run-time features of
these three distinct components, to roll them into one.

Each component individually has two run-time features, so that the
all-in-one run-time Europa feature contains:

      - org.eclipse.emf.query
      - org.eclipse.emf.query.ocl
      - org.eclipse.emf.transaction
      - org.eclipse.emf.workspace
      - org.eclipse.emf.validation
      - org.eclipse.emf.validation.ocl

where nesting shows <include>ed features.  None of these six included
features is listed in the Europa site.xml.  If these features had, instead,
been prereqed via <requires> at either the feature or plug-in level, then I
think it may have been necessary to expose them in the site.xml.

AFAIK, update manager has no problem with multiple features <include>ing
the same features, so perhaps <include> can be used more extensively to
avoid filling up the site.xml.

Hope that helps to clarify,


Christian W. Damus
Component Lead, Eclipse OCL and EMF-QTV
IBM Rational Software

            <Martin.Oberhuber                                          To
  >           "Cross project issues"              
            Sent by:                  <cross-project-issues-dev@eclipse.o
            ing-council-bounc                                          cc
            es@xxxxxxxxxxx            Dejan Glozic/Toronto/IBM@IBMCA,    
            06/04/07 12:44 PM>                            
                                      [] RE:  
            Please respond to         [cross-project-issues-dev]          
            "         Feedback on the europa update site  

My memory might fool me, but I think that my experience has shown me so
far, that
"Select Required" does NOT work for features which are available on the
site but not
listed on site.xml . After all, UM would not be able to display a selection
for such
features, would it? And, how would it know that these features exist after
all? I don't
think it scans the remote directory, I even don't think it would be capable
of doing that
through the http: protocol.

I have no time to verify this again now, but I'd recommend Bjorn to wait
with changes
to the build system until someone has verified what "Select Required" does.

Perhaps Dejan knows off the top of his head?

Martin Oberhuber
Wind River Systems, Inc.
Target Management Project Lead, DSDP PMC Member

From: cross-project-issues-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jeff
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 4:30 PM
To: Cross project issues
Cc: cross-project-issues-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx; Cross project issues;
Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Feedback on the europa update site

Note that I said,
        " Of course, there may well be a reality issue blocking this
theory... "
Please confirm that this all works as described, expected, desired before
going off and doing Europa-wide changes.


Bjorn Freeman-Benson                                                      
<bjorn.freeman-benson@ec                                         >                                                                
Sent by:                                                               To
cross-project-issues-dev       Cross project issues                      
-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx           <cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>,    
06/04/2007 10:15 AM                                                    cc
    Please respond to          Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Feedback on
  Cross project issues         the europa update site                    

Hmm, I learn something new every day... Ok, I will modify the Europa build
tool not to require that all features be listed in site.xml. I will send
email to the list after I have done that so that any project who wishes to
modify their portion of the site.xml may do so. Please do not modify the
Europa site.xml until after I have fixed the Europa build tool. Thanks.

Jeff McAffer wrote:

Just to clarify something, to have a feature be available an installable
from an update site it does NOT have to be listed in the site.xml.  The
site.xml is used to show users what is available for them to select and
download.  Depending on the workflow the features that are used by other
projects could be put on the Europa site but not in the site.xml.  People
should then be able to tell update manager to get the required features as
well.  Of course, there may well be a reality issue blocking this

Jeff _______________________________________________
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