| Re: [eclipse-ide-wg] Eclipse IDE Working Group Minutes - 5th April 2022 |
Thomas,
Comments below.
Yes, there are not enough people, the people are too busy, they are focused on their own priorities, and they are not being paid to be overly helpful with the rest of the community. How to fix that?Hi folks,
since I recently joined the JDT project as a committer again (after 20 years), I'm taking the liberty of chiming in on the "get more engagement" topic. These remarks apply mostly to the JDT project, but I would suspect they are valid elsewhere, as well. I fully expect this list to ruffle some feathers, but I feel it's important that we understand what it feels like to approach our community from the outside.
1. Committers are not responsive to change requests.With the move to Github, the team went through the open change requests on gerrit, and some had not received any attention after 2 years. There are technical and organisational reasons for this, but if that happened to me, it would be my first and last contribution. If we want people to believe their contribution is important, it needs to be important to us.
Yes, this is true of a great many projects. Again, people are too busy and too focused on other things. How to fix that?
2. There is generally very little community-oriented communication going on.Mails to the jdt-dev list elicit sparse responses and channels like mattermost are silent. There is no regular community meeting. Also, it's hard to find out which communication channels apply to the jdt project: jdt-dev is the obvious choice, but you also need platform-dev, eclipse-dev, ide-wg and cross-platform-issues mailing lists to keep up with relevant topics.
3. The on-boarding doc is terrible.I can't say it any more kindly, I'm afraid. The first place I got to when googling for guidance was here: https://projects.eclipse.org/projects/eclipse.jdt/developer. Good luck getting from there to a fully functional setup. I had the help of a kindly colleagure (thx, Jeff) to get me started, but as random dude from the internet, I would have turned around and left. Contrast this with something like this: https://github.com/eclipse-theia/theia/. Fun fact: there is a document that helps you get started at https://github.com/eclipse-jdt/eclipse.jdt.ui, but if you clone the project and import it into Eclipse, you can't see it, because the git root is not an Eclipse project.
Making the root a project would be very unhelpful, but that's another topic you started. But yes, the documentation has gotten outdated too, no one seems to want to write documentation, and wiki.eclipse.org is going away, so who wants to invest effort there?
That being said, if you follow these links in the newer
documentation:
https://github.com/eclipse-jdt
https://github.com/eclipse-jdt/.github/blob/main/CONTRIBUTING.md
You'll get here:
And here you can click to automatically create a development
environment specifically for working on JDT. Maybe projects have
such automated setup links.
Yes, we are working on that. But the fact is, people get excited about new trendy things, whether they are better or not.
4. We're not telling a compelling story.Mike M. just tweeted a blog saying "Theia is the next generation Eclipse". Why isn't Eclipse the next generation Eclipse? What are our exciting plans for the next 1-3 years? The perception in the general population seems to be that Eclipse is a legacy technology on a downward trend. That may be true or not, but we need a story to counter that perception.
The Eclipse PMC decided on this cadence to make things easier with less overhead around maintenance releases. (And I've seen an awful lot of scary changes; keeping them in check seems to be a challenge as well.)
5. High ProcessThe four release per year mean that a lot of time, the project is in "stabilisation phase" and committers unwilling to make scary changes. All the rules around the release train, M-releases, etc. present a learning curve. I'm sure most of the rules are written down somewhere, but for a newcomer, they are hard to find.
my 0.02. CHF.
Ask not what can your country do for you but what you can do for my country. :-P
I think many of the problems are very clear, but the solutions
are not. Not only that, even when the solution is very clear, the
solution almost always requires people with time, but there are
not enough people with enough time...
E.g., we had a robot that auto closes bugs after they get ignored
for 2 years. Many of the committers thought this is a good thing
because they don't have time and don't want to triage bugs so
better they disappear on their own. This cannot be fixed by decree
though it's obvious that triaging defects is an essential service.
/Thomas
------ Original Message ------From: "Jonah Graham" <jonah@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>To: "Discussions on Eclipse IDE Working Group" <eclipse-ide-wg@xxxxxxxxxxx>Sent: 19/04/2022 15:46:24Subject: [eclipse-ide-wg] Eclipse IDE Working Group Minutes - 5th April 2022
Hi all,
Please see the approved minutes from the 5th of March for the Eclipse IDE Working Group, attached.
The Steering Committee unanimously approved the Minutes of April 5th, 2022 on April 19th 2022.
Best Regards,
Jonah.
Jonah Graham~~~
Kichwa Coders
www.kichwacoders.com
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