Hello,
David, thank you for explaining so well what I have actually failed
to explain – the motivation for doing this release.
I attach an updated version of the Release
Review slides .
We’ve just submitted the IP log. We used the IP log of WTP
Incubator and excluded everything that is not relevant to the JPA Editor. By
the way, there was no option available to exclude 3rd party CQs. Slide
17 summarizes which are the relevant parts from the WTP Incubator’s IP log.
Greetings,
Kaloyan
From: Wayne Beaton
[mailto:wayne@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: 20 ноември 2010 г. 20:20 ч.
To: WTP PMC communications (including coordination, announcements, and
Group discussions); Raev, Kaloyan
Subject: Re: [wtp-pmc] JPA Diagram Editor Release Review
Thanks for this David. This has been bugging me since the
day we started this conversation. I'm not keen on taking a hard line.
But--after much reflection--I've decided that the course that I've forced us on
is far too hard-line and misses the all-important guiding principle of "do
the right thing". Making a new project is _not_ the right thing. Frankly,
I don't think that releasing a component within the incubator is the right
thing either, but it's more "right" than making a new project.
That spirit, I'm back-peddling.
I wasn't aware of the precedent. As far as I can tell, it is a violation of the
2008 version of the EDP. It may acceptable by the previous version since it had
a formal notion of components (though XSL was never a formal component AFAICT).
Since there is already precedent for doing a "release" of a component
within the incubator, let's do that again this time. We can schedule the review
to run from Nov. 24-Dec.1. We can use the release documentation that you've
already provided. You'll have to submit an IP Log for review.
I'd like to see this component move out of the incubator as soon as it is
convenient.
I'll be looking for your input, Kaloyan, on Bug 330729.
Wayne
David M Williams wrote:
> The EDP provides for considerable flexibility around
incubators. In
> general, incubators are a place to try new ideas in a very
> lightweight way (no additional management overhead, ability to use
> the Parallel IP process, relatively easy to add new committers, that
> sort of thing). As those ideas get heavier (i.e. more real), the EDP
> provides for those ideas to be extracted and grown into separate
> projects of their own. I would argue that we should probably have
> considered moving the JPA Diagram Editor out of the incubator a
> while ago (around the time that it stopped being an idea that you
> were bouncing around and it turned into something with legs of its own).
I don't disagree with anything that has been said, but will add some history
and additional use-cases here. We in WTP (and WTP Incubator) have released
incubating components in the past, prior to graduating into a project, such as
for XSL 0.5. I don't recall if this was an exception to the "only projects
release" rule at the time (several years ago), or simply several EDPs
versions ago where the rules were not clear or did not prohibit it. The reason
for doing that sort of thing, that I do not think has been emphasized enough,
is that one or more adopters wanted to use it in their own release of a product
or other open source project. They are motivated simply to have an IP clean
version that will be persisted for a long time (on downloads, or archives, as
our WTP policy is to archive all releases, but little else). The dynamic behind
this is simply that they may not care if it is not quite a mature "stand
on its own" project, but it serves their needs. And while we normally
discourage people from using pre-1.0 code in products or project releases ...
at the same time, we are highly motivated to fill the needs of adopters.
Also keep in mind, some other reasons for having an incubator is having an
lower bar for committers to get started, that do not yet have a long, visible
history at Eclipse ... thus, the code they are working on may not be so much
"exploring new ideas", but lean more towards simply "exploring
open development" ... learning the ropes of working at Eclipse, both the
mechanics and culture of working in the open. In fact, I'd say very little of
the current code/components in WTP Incubator are simply "trying new
ideas" but most are very well established ideas, that are simply trying to
firm up their code while collaborating with potential adopters and committers,
firming up their activity levels, and get into the "Eclipse Way" of
managing builds, having regular milestones, managing bugzilla, mailing lists,
newsgroups, forums, open status meetings, etc. (all no small task, as is well
known).
I think in this specific case, some deadlines crept up on us sooner than we
expected, and yes, we could have gotten started earlier ... but, not sure
that's the only thing to learn. It does seem that perhaps we have been putting
too much in the general WTP Incubator, and in the future, we should just
request new proposals to just to go ahead and propose a new incubating
subproject and reserve the WTP Incubator for simply kicking around new ideas.
Well, that, and just make sure everyone knows well up front that nothing from
WTP Incubator can release (I probably did know that, at some level, but didn't
really think it through in the normal course of meetings and planning).
I do not know how much need there would be for it, that is, don't know if worth
expending effort on improving EDP, but there might be some need to have a
different type of release, let's call it a "pre 1.0 release" that
could be components, lets say of incubating projects only, and would mostly
mean "IP Clean" but not rise to the level of "graduating"
into its own project. But, again, I don't disagree with what has been said, and
I do not see much harm in encouraging more and quicker movement of incubating
components to incubating subprojects, since that doesn't mean it has to be
final ... it could always move and reorganize later. But it may just take us
some time to "internalize" this way of thinking and make it a
practice. In any case, I have opened
an "EDP
Bug" (330729) to document and discuss possible long term changes in
EDP to allow incubating components to release, in case it comes up frequently.
Wayne, we appreciate your attention and efforts on helping us with our projects
and processes.
And Kaloyan, I especially appreciate your efforts to blaze these trails and
help these fledgling components get through the processes so adopters can take
advantage of the functionality.
Thanks to you both.
From:
Wayne Beaton <wayne@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To:
"Raev, Kaloyan" <kaloyan.raev@xxxxxxx>
Cc:
"WTP PMC communications \(including coordination,
announcements, and Group discussions\)" <wtp-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx>, "Dimov,
Stefan" <stefan.dimov@xxxxxxx>
Date:
11/19/2010 11:17 AM
Subject:
Re: [wtp-pmc] JPA Diagram Editor Release Review
Sent
by: wtp-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
The EDP provides for considerable flexibility around incubators. In general,
incubators are a place to try new ideas in a very lightweight way (no
additional management overhead, ability to use the Parallel IP process,
relatively easy to add new committers, that sort of thing). As those ideas get
heavier (i.e. more real), the EDP provides for those ideas to be extracted and
grown into separate projects of their own. I would argue that we should
probably have considered moving the JPA Diagram Editor out of the incubator a
while ago (around the time that it stopped being an idea that you were bouncing
around and it turned into something with legs of its own).
I will review your proposal document and return any feedback to you before I
post it and announce it to the membership. It'll need to be vetted by EMO(ED)
as well. I will initiate the trademark search immediately so that we are
prepared for the Creation Review.
We can combine the Creation and Release reviews which will effectively alloyou
to release as soon as the review is complete, but prior to provisioning. The
only wrinkle is that there will be no official place to put the bits. I suppose
that it would be reasonable to put the bits (at least temporarily) in the
downloads area for the WTP Incubator if that is acceptable by the PMC.
The initial contribution will be the result of a move. No CQ is required. The
CQs corresponding to the code will be moved along with the code.
We will need to do the IP Log review prior to the release. I don't think that
the Woolsey tools are quite ready yet (I'm hoping for a December release), but
the existing automated log tool seems to work [1]. Though you may need to
remove some stuff manually; if you log in there is a mechanism to help you with
this. Alternatively, you can snapshot the HTML and just hack out the bits that
shouldn't be there.
Actually... this will be easier with Woolsey. If you want to give Woolsey a
try, let me know and I'll put up a repository and spend a couple of hours
providing some initial documentation. That's going to have to happen sooner or
later anyway
HTH,
Wayne
[1] http://www.eclipse.org/projects/ip_log.php?projectid=webtools.incubator
Raev, Kaloyan wrote:
Hi
Wayne,
OK…
I think the root problem is that the EMO and (at least part of) the Eclipse
committers have different understanding of the Incubator project. My take away
from this story is to never ever dare to think about using an Incubator project
for whatever purpose.
Please,
find attached the proposal document for the JPA Diagram Editor. It’s almost the
same as the one we did to start the project as new component in the WTP
Incubator.
Walking
this way, I have now more and more open questions, that I need answers for in
order to make some reasonable planning:
·
We have to wait at least 3 weeks for the project to be created.
That’s clear.
·
Can we release before the provisioning of the project completes
(but after the project is created)? We can use the existing infrastructure in
WTP Incubator for this first release.
·
Do we need to reiterate the IP review of the initial
contribution? The initial contribution will be the existing code in the CVS of
the WTP Incubator. It has a completed IP review.
·
What happen with the CQs we’ve done while being in the WTP
Incubator project? Do we have to reapply for them before releasing?
Regarding
your suggestion to move the code as a new component under the Dali project. We
discussed this at the WTP PMC. But, as you have already mentioned, components
do not release by themselves. Since our goal for this first release is to be
compatible to Helios, moving the component from the WTP Incubator to Dali, does
not help at all. Dali already rides the Indigo train. Releasing a new version
of the whole Dali project (just to release the JPA Diagram Editor) has a
greater complexity of the issue we are discussing now.
Greetings,
Kaloyan
From: Wayne Beaton [mailto:wayne@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: 17 ноември 2010 г. 23:46 ч.
To: Raev, Kaloyan
Cc: Dimov, Stefan; WTP PMC communications (including coordination,
announcements, and Group discussions); Mike Milinkovich
Subject: Re: JPA Diagram Editor Release Review
FWIW *every* time I start an email like my last I first try to resolve to
myself whether or not I think the process is reasonable. This is why I
suggested the Creation/Release review combination using the most aggressive
timeline possible. If you believe that the EDP needs to be adjusted, feel free
to open bugs against Community/Process for consideration next time we revise
the EDP.
I'm sure that a good chunk of the world already knows about the JPA Diagram
Editor. I must, however, confess that I had not heard of it before I received
your request for release. I actually spent a good deal of time going through
our database and my mail log to make sure that I hadn't just forgotten about
it. The proposal and review period is to give the community and other concerned
parties an opportunity to comment, criticize and otherwise get involved. While
it may feel like unnecessary bureaucracy to post a proposal and engage in a
review, the EMO and the Board consider it to be an important part of the
process. A lot of organizations, including many of our board members and
adopters, are not able to monitor every forum upon which communication occurs.
They depend on EMO communication about new projects to keep up with and get
involved with new developments.
I agree that there is an element of restructuring happening as part of this:
the relevant code from the incubator will move it a new project (that
restructuring will be implicit in the creation). That new project, however, is
not the result of restructuring the incubator. You are not factoring the scope
of the WTP Incubator or breaking it into manageably-sized subprojects. Such is
the nature of incubators. Incubators are an ideal place to start working on new
ideas, but once those new ideas gain an identity of their own, it's time for
them to move into a newly-minted project. The incubator does not restructure
every time code moves out of it.
Perhaps it can be argued that the EDP does not make this clear enough,
and--while I loathe to add more words to the EDP--perhaps the next iteration
needs to better define the intent. I believe that the line "The scope of
any new project must be a subset of the scope of the original project."
covers my interpretation. I don't believe that we can reasonably state that the
scope of the new project you want to create is a subset of the scope of the
incubator.
If the JPA Diagram Editor makes sense as a subproject of Dali, could it also
just be a piece of Dali? Is there some reason that a new project is required?
Does the function of JPA Diagram Editor fall within the scope of Dali? If we
can argue that JPA Diagram Editor is a reasonable piece of Dali, then we can
initiate a restructuring review and then Dali can do a release (of course,
you'll have to get the project on board for the release).
Wayne
On 17/11/2010 1:32 PM, Raev, Kaloyan wrote:
Wayne,
I think we
are entering a process hell that goes completely out of rationale.
The
development of the JPA Diagram Editor in the Eclipse community has been done in
a transparent way. We did a proposal for the WTP Incubator. It was discussed in
the wtp-dev mailing list and in the WTP PMC. We posted some blogs to
planet.eclpise.org during the development. We did a talk at Eclipse Summit
Europe. We had some discussion in the Eclipse Forums. We did CQs, IP Reviews,
IP logs…
The world
knows about the JPA Diagram Editor and that it is developed in the WTP
Incubator. Spending 3 weeks (or perhaps many more as I see where the wind blows
to) in reiterating the complete EDP will not give more transparency or get any
new feedback.
I understand
it was a terrible mistake starting the project in the WTP Incubator, but I hope
we can find a meaningful solution in an acceptable time. We just want to
release. If EDP does not allow this, or wants to make our life miserable in
order to release, then the EDP is wrong, or we read it in a wrong way.
I really
don’t understand why this cannot be considered as Restructuring of the WTP
Incubator project. Over the last months we’ve done a lot of work and produced
some artifacts like code, Bugzilla items, CQs, etc. We want to *move*
them to a new place, where we can release from. We don’t want to throw them
away and start from scratch. Yes, this new place is a new project, but chapter
6.3.8 of EDP says that, as part of the Restructuring Review, new projects can
be created. And the time for the review is still one week.
Greetings,
Kaloyan
From: Wayne Beaton [mailto:wayne@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: 17 ноември 2010 г. 20:03 ч.
To: Raev, Kaloyan
Cc: Dimov, Stefan; WTP PMC communications (including coordination,
announcements, and Group discussions)
Subject: Re: JPA Diagram Editor Release Review
I think we're really talking about a creation review. While it might be
convenient to think of it as such, you're not really restructuring the
incubator.
A creation review requires a proposal period of no less than two weeks followed
by one week of review (a total of three weeks). If you can get me a proposal
document before noon ET tomorrow, we can have the project created by Dec. 8 and
provisioned shortly thereafter.
http://wiki.eclipse.org/Development_Resources/HOWTO/Starting_A_New_Project
I'm pretty sure that this has never been done before, but we could consider a
combined Creation/Release review. This will allow you to release as soon after
provisioning as you can manage.
We should start with a proposal document as normal, and then build a
Creation/Release Review document in time for the release. If you can have the
proposal document ready by tomorrow, the review document would need to be ready
by Dec 1.
HTH,
Wayne
Raev, Kaloyan wrote:
Hi Wayne,
Any news from
you? I missed to tell that there is a time pressure. We would like to have the
release available on December 1st at latest. I hope we have enough
time to go through EDP.
I am reading
the about EDP right now. I find chapter 6.3.8 Restructuring Review relevant for
our case:
“A
Restructuring Review may necessitate the construction of one or more new
projects. This tends to occur when an existing project is decomposed into two
or more projects. In this case, a Restructuring Review is similar to a Creation
Review. Any new projects that are created as part of a Restructuring Review
must have their scope explicitly specified as part of the review. The scope of
any new project must be a subset of the scope of the original project.”
So, in our
case we would like to take part of the WTP Incubator project – the JPA Diagram
Editor component, and create a new project for it with the same scope, code and
committers. And we want to combine this (chapter 6.3.9) with a Release Review.
Please, let
me know if this is meaningful and possible. I will appreciate any hints about
required documents.
Thanks,
Kaloyan
From: Raev, Kaloyan
Sent: 16 ноември 2010 г. 19:38 ч.
To: 'Wayne Beaton'
Cc: Dimov, Stefan; 'WTP PMC communications (including coordination,
announcements, and Group discussions)'
Subject: RE: JPA Diagram Editor Release Review
Hi Wayne,
We have just
discussed this issue in the WTP PMC. We decided that the best approach should
be that the JPA Diagram Editor, which is currently a WTP Incubator Component,
“moves” to a new subproject (yet incubating) under the WTP Dali project. So, at
the end, we release version 0.5 from this new JPA Diagram Editor project and
not from the WTP Incubator component.
Now, the big
question is: “How is this going to happen?”. We suggest that we extend the
Release Review to a “Pre-graduation Release Review + Move/Creation Review”. We
will include some more slides in the document, which describe the “move
mechanics” – what infrastructure moves where.
Does this
sound reasonable? Do we need to create a new proposal document? We still have
the one from the time we introduced the JPA Diagram Editor in the WTP
Incubator:
http://wiki.eclipse.org/WTP/JPA_Diagram_Editor/Proposal
Greetings,
Kaloyan
From: Raev, Kaloyan
Sent: 12 ноември 2010 г. 18:54 ч.
To: 'Wayne Beaton'
Cc: Dimov, Stefan
Subject: RE: JPA Diagram Editor Release Review
Thanks,
Wayne.
We will
discuss this in the PMC.
Greetings,
Kaloyan
From: Wayne Beaton [mailto:wayne@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: 12 ноември 2010 г. 18:47 ч.
To: Raev, Kaloyan
Cc: Dimov, Stefan
Subject: Re: JPA Diagram Editor Release Review
There is no notion of releasing a component in the EDP. Only projects can
release and projects designated as "incubators" don't tend to release
at all.
If you think that JPA Diagram Editor is ready to stand on its own outside of
the incubator, then maybe it's time to create a new project for it. Or perhaps
it should move to another project under WTP and align with their release
schedule.
Wayne
Woolsey's not ready yet.
Raev, Kaloyan wrote:
Hi Wayne,
We would like
to schedule a release review for the JPA Diagram Editor, which is currently incubating
under the WTP Incubator.
Which is the
next possible date to schedule a Release Review?
I attach the
docuware, that Stefan (the project lead) has prepared. The only thing left is
to generate the IP Log. Could you give us some instructions how to do this? We
try to use the Woolsey tools, but we are not sure if it is “production ready”.
Could you point us to some documentation how to use it?
Thanks,
Kaloyan
Raev
Senior Developer
TD Core JS App Model & Dev
SAP Labs Bulgaria
136A Tzar Boris 3 blvd.
1618 Sofia, Bulgaria
T +359 2 9157-416
mailto:kaloyan.raev@xxxxxxx
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