Hi
Wayne,
OK…
I think the root problem is that the EMO and (at least part
of) the Eclipse committers have different understanding of the
Incubator
project. My take away from this story is to never ever dare to think
about using
an Incubator project for whatever purpose.
Please,
find attached the proposal document for the JPA Diagram
Editor. It’s almost the same as the one we did to start the project as
new component
in the WTP Incubator.
Walking
this way, I have now more and more open questions, that
I need answers for in order to make some reasonable planning:
·
We
have to wait at least 3 weeks for the project to be created.
That’s clear.
·
Can
we release before the provisioning of the project completes
(but after the project is created)? We can use the existing
infrastructure in
WTP Incubator for this first release.
·
Do
we need to reiterate the IP review of the initial
contribution? The initial contribution will be the existing code in the
CVS of
the WTP Incubator. It has a completed IP review.
·
What
happen with the CQs we’ve done while being in the WTP
Incubator project? Do we have to reapply for them before releasing?
Regarding
your suggestion to move the code as a new component
under the Dali project. We discussed this at the WTP PMC. But, as you
have
already mentioned, components do not release by themselves. Since our
goal for
this first release is to be compatible to Helios, moving the component
from the
WTP Incubator to Dali, does not help at all. Dali already rides the
Indigo
train. Releasing a new version of the whole Dali project (just to
release the
JPA Diagram Editor) has a greater complexity of the issue we are
discussing
now.
Greetings,
Kaloyan
From:
Wayne Beaton
[mailto:wayne@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: 17 ноември 2010 г. 23:46 ч.
To: Raev, Kaloyan
Cc: Dimov, Stefan; WTP PMC communications (including
coordination,
announcements, and Group discussions); Mike Milinkovich
Subject: Re: JPA Diagram Editor Release Review
FWIW *every* time I start an email like my last
I first try
to resolve to myself whether or not I think the process is reasonable.
This is
why I suggested the Creation/Release review combination using the most
aggressive timeline possible. If you believe that the EDP needs to be
adjusted,
feel free to open bugs against Community/Process for consideration next
time we
revise the EDP.
I'm sure that a good chunk of the world already knows about the JPA
Diagram
Editor. I must, however, confess that I had not heard of it before I
received
your request for release. I actually spent a good deal of time going
through
our database and my mail log to make sure that I hadn't just forgotten
about
it. The proposal and review period is to give the community and other
concerned
parties an opportunity to comment, criticize and otherwise get
involved. While
it may feel like unnecessary bureaucracy to post a proposal and engage
in a
review, the EMO and the Board consider it to be an important part of
the
process. A lot of organizations, including many of our board members
and
adopters, are not able to monitor every forum upon which communication
occurs.
They depend on EMO communication about new projects to keep up with and
get
involved with new developments.
I agree that there is an element of restructuring happening as part of
this:
the relevant code from the incubator will move it a new project (that
restructuring will be implicit in the creation). That new project,
however, is
not the result of restructuring the incubator. You are not factoring
the scope
of the WTP Incubator or breaking it into manageably-sized subprojects.
Such is
the nature of incubators. Incubators are an ideal place to start
working on new
ideas, but once those new ideas gain an identity of their own, it's
time for
them to move into a newly-minted project. The incubator does not
restructure
every time code moves out of it.
Perhaps it can be argued that the EDP does not make this clear enough,
and--while I loathe to add more words to the EDP--perhaps the next
iteration
needs to better define the intent. I believe that the line "The scope
of
any new project must be a subset of the scope of the original project."
covers my interpretation. I don't believe that we can reasonably state
that the
scope of the new project you want to create is a subset of the scope of
the
incubator.
If the JPA Diagram Editor makes sense as a subproject of Dali, could it
also
just be a piece of Dali? Is there some reason that a new project is
required?
Does the function of JPA Diagram Editor fall within the scope of Dali?
If we
can argue that JPA Diagram Editor is a reasonable piece of Dali, then
we can
initiate a restructuring review and then Dali can do a release (of
course,
you'll have to get the project on board for the release).
Wayne
On 17/11/2010 1:32 PM, Raev, Kaloyan wrote:
Wayne,
I
think we are entering a process hell that goes completely out of
rationale.
The
development of the JPA Diagram Editor in the Eclipse community has been
done in
a transparent way. We did a proposal for the WTP Incubator. It was
discussed in
the wtp-dev mailing list and in the WTP PMC. We posted some blogs to
planet.eclpise.org during the development. We did a talk at Eclipse
Summit
Europe. We had some discussion in the Eclipse Forums. We did CQs, IP
Reviews,
IP logs…
The
world knows about the JPA Diagram Editor and that it is developed in
the WTP
Incubator. Spending 3 weeks (or perhaps many more as I see where the
wind blows
to) in reiterating the complete EDP will not give more transparency or
get any
new feedback.
I
understand it was a terrible mistake starting the project in the WTP
Incubator,
but I hope we can find a meaningful solution in an acceptable time. We
just
want to release. If EDP does not allow this, or wants to make our life
miserable in order to release, then the EDP is wrong, or we read it in
a wrong
way.
I
really don’t understand why this cannot be considered as Restructuring
of the
WTP Incubator project. Over the last months we’ve done a lot of work
and
produced some artifacts like code, Bugzilla items, CQs, etc. We want to
*move*
them to a new place, where we can release from. We don’t want to throw
them
away and start from scratch. Yes, this new place is a new project, but
chapter
6.3.8 of EDP says that, as part of the Restructuring Review, new
projects can
be created. And the time for the review is still one week.
Greetings,
Kaloyan
From:
Wayne Beaton [mailto:wayne@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: 17 ноември 2010 г. 20:03 ч.
To: Raev, Kaloyan
Cc: Dimov, Stefan; WTP PMC communications (including
coordination, announcements,
and Group discussions)
Subject: Re: JPA Diagram Editor Release Review
I think we're really talking about a creation
review. While
it might be convenient to think of it as such, you're not really
restructuring
the incubator.
A creation review requires a proposal period of no less than two weeks
followed
by one week of review (a total of three weeks). If you can get me a
proposal
document before noon ET tomorrow, we can have the project created by
Dec. 8 and
provisioned shortly thereafter.
http://wiki.eclipse.org/Development_Resources/HOWTO/Starting_A_New_Project
I'm pretty sure that this has never been done before, but we could
consider a
combined Creation/Release review. This will allow you to release as
soon after
provisioning as you can manage.
We should start with a proposal document as normal, and then build a
Creation/Release Review document in time for the release. If you can
have the
proposal document ready by tomorrow, the review document would need to
be ready
by Dec 1.
HTH,
Wayne
Raev, Kaloyan wrote:
Hi
Wayne,
Any
news from you? I missed to tell that there is a time pressure. We would
like to
have the release available on December 1st at latest. I hope
we have
enough time to go through EDP.
I
am reading the about EDP right now. I find chapter 6.3.8 Restructuring
Review
relevant for our case:
“A
Restructuring Review may necessitate the construction
of one or more new projects. This tends to occur when an existing
project is
decomposed into two or more projects. In this case, a Restructuring
Review is
similar to a Creation Review. Any new projects that are created as part
of a
Restructuring Review must have their scope explicitly specified as part
of the
review. The scope of any new project must be a subset of the scope of
the
original project.”
So,
in our case we would like to take part of the WTP Incubator project –
the JPA
Diagram Editor component, and create a new project for it with the same
scope,
code and committers. And we want to combine this (chapter 6.3.9) with a
Release
Review.
Please,
let me know if this is meaningful and possible. I will appreciate any
hints
about required documents.
Thanks,
Kaloyan
From:
Raev, Kaloyan
Sent: 16 ноември 2010 г. 19:38 ч.
To: 'Wayne Beaton'
Cc: Dimov, Stefan; 'WTP PMC communications (including
coordination,
announcements, and Group discussions)'
Subject: RE: JPA Diagram Editor Release Review
Hi
Wayne,
We
have just discussed this issue in the WTP PMC. We decided that the best
approach should be that the JPA Diagram Editor, which is currently a
WTP
Incubator Component, “moves” to a new subproject (yet incubating) under
the WTP
Dali project. So, at the end, we release version 0.5 from this new JPA
Diagram
Editor project and not from the WTP Incubator component.
Now,
the big question is: “How is this going to happen?”. We suggest that we
extend
the Release Review to a “Pre-graduation Release Review + Move/Creation
Review”.
We will include some more slides in the document, which describe the
“move
mechanics” – what infrastructure moves where.
Does
this sound reasonable? Do we need to create a new proposal document? We
still
have the one from the time we introduced the JPA Diagram Editor in the
WTP
Incubator:
http://wiki.eclipse.org/WTP/JPA_Diagram_Editor/Proposal
Greetings,
Kaloyan
From:
Raev, Kaloyan
Sent: 12 ноември 2010 г. 18:54 ч.
To: 'Wayne Beaton'
Cc: Dimov, Stefan
Subject: RE: JPA Diagram Editor Release Review
Thanks,
Wayne.
We
will discuss this in the PMC.
Greetings,
Kaloyan
From:
Wayne Beaton [mailto:wayne@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: 12 ноември 2010 г. 18:47 ч.
To: Raev, Kaloyan
Cc: Dimov, Stefan
Subject: Re: JPA Diagram Editor Release Review
There is no notion of releasing a component in
the EDP. Only
projects can release and projects designated as "incubators" don't
tend to release at all.
If you think that JPA Diagram Editor is ready to stand on its own
outside of
the incubator, then maybe it's time to create a new project for it. Or
perhaps
it should move to another project under WTP and align with their
release
schedule.
Wayne
Woolsey's not ready yet.
Raev, Kaloyan wrote:
We
would like to schedule a release review for the JPA Diagram Editor,
which is
currently incubating under the WTP Incubator.
Which
is the next possible date to schedule a Release Review?
I
attach the docuware, that Stefan (the project lead) has prepared. The
only
thing left is to generate the IP Log. Could you give us some
instructions how
to do this? We try to use the Woolsey tools, but we are not sure if it
is
“production ready”. Could you point us to some documentation how to use
it?
Kaloyan
Raev
Senior
Developer
TD
Core JS App Model & Dev
SAP Labs Bulgaria
136A
Tzar Boris 3 blvd.
1618
Sofia, Bulgaria
T
+359 2 9157-416
mailto:kaloyan.raev@xxxxxxx
www.sap.com
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Wayne Beaton, The Eclipse Foundation
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--
Wayne Beaton, The Eclipse Foundation
http://www.eclipse.org
--
Join me at EclipseCon 2011
http://eclipsecon.org/
