[udig-devel] IRC on Axios's tools

[Adrian Custer <acuster@xxxxxxxxx>]

Hey all,

Due to timing conflicts we held a breakout IRC early today between
acuster, groldan and mauricio. A summary follows and the text is
attached,

adrian

IRC chat Thus 20 Sept. Summary:
------------------------------

Editing mode:
  - Adrian said other GISs have an "Editing mode" so you can't edit by
default
    which seems good as a way to prevent unintentional editing.
  - Gabriel said he would follow the opinion of the project leaders
  - What's your feeling about it?
  
Tool reorg: 
  - Adrian said the tools are a mess, suggested for example
  
      Info tools:
        Select (an arrow pointer) aka "Box select"
        Info tool 
        Distance tool
        
      View tools:
        Pan Tool
        Zoom Tool
        (to write) Rotate Tool
        
      Editing Tools {This will require more thinking}
        
  - Gabriel aggreed, said there was a diagram
  - is there a bug filed for this; your thoughts?
  
Selection:
  - There are lots of selections e.g. "Feature Selection" using the
"Box 
      selector" tool vs. the "Vertex Selection" using the "Edit
Geometry" tool. 
      Axios' tools apparently use the former.
  - Gabriel thinks selections needs to be retought. It ought to be
possible to 
    select features from different layers
  - Adrian mentioned the info tools doesn't respect the selected layer
  - Gabriel wanted an 'unselect' by clicking in empty area functionality
  
Save on exit:
  - The dialog on exiting udig when a map layer has been edited
confusingly asks 
    the user if they want to save the "Map"
      "Do you wish to save map Beles?"
    seems like it should be
      "n features in x layers have changed, Should we commit changes?"
      "Commit  ||  Discard"
  - Gabriel thought it would be nice to be able to commit only some
layers.
  

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<acuster> hey newbie
<acuster> you working on udig or new to irc?
* acuster remembers joining a totally random channel his first day on irc
* groldan (n=gabriel@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx) has joined #udig
<|newbie|> Hi acuster
<groldan> hi acuster
<acuster> hey groldan |newbie| 
<groldan> what time is the meeting at?
<acuster> 7:00 eu time, no?
<acuster> but if you want to chat now, that would work for me
<acuster> it all being informal
<groldan> now is fine for me
<|newbie|> we could talk now
<groldan> gotta run home at 18:30
<acuster> okay, lets take ten minutes
* |newbie| is now known as mauricio
<acuster> 1) in arcview, you can't edit until you turn "editing on"
<acuster> which seems nice and compartmentalized
<acuster> you know you can play as much as you want without changing the data
<acuster> Have you all thought of implementing that kind of system?
<acuster> 2) The tools are totally disorganized
<acuster> I would want view tools (pick feature tool [an arrow], info tool, zoom tool, pan tool, rotate tool (to come))
<acuster> then sorry
<groldan> about 1) we're generally trying to follow udig mentors' directions. When there's no direction we ask. Guess that would be fine and I've saw other apps doing the same (gvSig for one)
* acuster starts again
<groldan> 2) totally agreed
<acuster> pick tools: pick feature tool [an arrow], info tool, zoom tool
<acuster> with the first able to pick by rectangle
<groldan> I heard Jesse had some plans to organize stuff. They're all messed up and there are stuff in toolbars that has no its equivalent in the menu
<acuster> view tools: zoom, pan, rotate
<acuster> ah, 
<acuster> so that kind of thing is on the table. Okay I'll write up my thoughts in an email
<acuster> right now there are two approaches to selection
<acuster> one with the 'rectangle select'
<acuster> another with the "edit geom" 
<acuster> your tools need users to select right? Is that using the second type of selection only?
<acuster> what's the workflow for cutting a road in two?
<groldan> I even saw some time ago an attempt of organization sketch. If it wasn't yours guess it was from Jody
<acuster> have you all ever used a digitizer?
<groldan> yup, for that kind of tools we're using normal selections (i.e. no editgeom)
<groldan> I did about 10 years ago, so certainly not with uDig :)
<acuster> so we need feedback on what's selected
<groldan> i.e. Split: will split the selected geoms that the splitting line crosses. If there's no prior selection, will split anything that gets in its way
<acuster> because I got one of your error dialogs 'nothing selected' 
<groldan> so you could have selected the features you're meant to split prior to select the split tool
<groldan> or have no selection and be carefull
<acuster> perhaps we can talk about the "feature selector" and the "vertex selector"
<acuster> as in use those words for the two different selectors
<groldan> yup, sounds reasonable. the difference being the "feature selector" sets a selection filter on the layer, but the "vertex selector" picks the geometry and stores it on the blackboard as an EditGeom
<groldan> is that what you mean?
<acuster> "The command didn't apply to any Feature. Is there a selection set?
<groldan> I'm aware of that and has its rationale
<groldan> the thing is more or less as follows:
<acuster> sure, but the "selection" could be layer, feature, vertex
<groldan> the udig selection mechanism shall be cleaned up imho
<acuster> good
<groldan> it is a very common assumption for a user that if he picks over an "empty" area, he's releasing the current selection
<acuster> indeed
<groldan> but what udig is doing is storing a bbox filter as the layer's selection
<groldan> by the other hand, there's a null object that indicates a layer has no selection, Fitler.ALL for instance
<acuster> and the information tool doesn't respect the selected layer but gets information on everything
<groldan> so, to be consistent, if the user makes a selection and it leads to no features selected, uDig should put Filter.ALL as the layer's selection filter
<groldan> so client code does no need to double check
<acuster> So we have "feature editing tools" and "vertex editing tools"
<acuster> what was your work on "modes"?
<groldan> right now its limited to "feature creation" tools
<groldan> (the other drop down button with tools)
<acuster> if i select a feature, can I remove that selection through the keyboard?
<groldan> they're intended to establish temporary "modes" or constraints while your're digitizing
<acuster> yeah, I like the intent, just wondered if you had a design you were happy with
<acuster> you all are not working on the vertex editing tools right?
<groldan> (if it was "feature selection" no, if it was "vertex selection" yes, pressing escape releases it from the blackboard)
<groldan> not yet. You still thinking in the Inkscape way of doing so, right?
<acuster> plus some way to extend lines (which inkscape doesn't have).
<groldan> adding modes for vertex editing could be done just the same way we did for creation tools
<groldan> just that I'm affraid thety should impose a different kind of constraints
<acuster> right. Okay we'll talk about this again some other time. 
<mauricio> other issue about selection is the possibility to select features from different layers, is that posible?
* acuster thinks not
<groldan> mauricio++ it should be possible to have selected features in more than one layer
<acuster> how does your system save the altered stuff?
<groldan> by digging into the code it seems it was like that a time ago and somehow they decided to let a single layer have a selection at a time
<acuster> when and how?
<acuster> yeah, I vaguely remember jesse telling me something of the sort.
<groldan> we just follow the udig conventions: throwing up UndoableMapCommands
<acuster> how do you get your changes saved then?
<groldan> when the user commits, just like for any other edit tool
<groldan> so you can make a bunch of changes, undo as required, and commit when you're happy
<acuster> via the "File" tool?
<acuster> we need to catch 'edited and not saved' layers on uDig shutdown
<groldan> File/commit or the button in the toolbar, yes
<groldan> I guess by now uDig asks you if you want to save the map
<acuster> Thanks. I have a better understanding of what's going on so I have a better idea how it needs to evolve
<groldan> so you have to be careful on your answer, because its going to close anyway
<groldan> just tried and as I responded yet, uDig saved my changes before closign
<groldan> closing
<acuster> "use verbs" is the GNOME way of simplifying the lives of users. Buttons should have verbs on them
<acuster> yeah, I get "Do you wish to save map Beles?" 
<acuster> seems out of place
<groldan> hmmmm not so sure
<groldan> as uDig maintains a single transaction per map
<groldan> so you commit all the changes on all the modified layers of your map, or do nothing
<acuster> so the dialog needs more feedback
<acuster> n features in x layers have changed, Should we commit changes?
<groldan> so, though I agree with you, (I would like to even be able of saving the current layer but not others!)
<acuster> Commit/Discard
<groldan> sure, agreed
<acuster> I'm done with my questions
<acuster> thanks you two and great work!
<groldan> ok, thanks and feel free to keep asking as needed
<acuster> wohoo, it works
<acuster> with a few redraw problems but it works
<acuster> lovely
<groldan> what are you trying?
<groldan> (btw, redraw problems seems to be a constant... :( )