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Re: [ee4j-community] ee4j-community Digest, Vol 3, Issue 73
It is exactly right that beyond retaining the capacity to sue people, Oracle does not care much about the Java brand. Just as in the case of C#, opening it up will enhance the Java brand further if anything else.

I am sure Sun employee will make various excuses, but the industry consensus appears to be that Sun itself was not that open of a company when the decision was made not to truly standardize Java. It took a lot of pressure just to convince Sun to finally open up the JDK. That all said, again it's just hindsight and perhaps besides the point.

Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: Werner Keil <werner.keil@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: 11/25/17 1:30 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: EE4J community discussions <ee4j-community@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [ee4j-community] ee4j-community Digest, Vol 3, Issue 73

Yes, you are right. If people would have to change all their existing code from "javax.something" to "org.eclipse.something" just for the sake of protecting a brand Oracle itself does not even care much about (see Project Fn built mostly on Go) then they might as well change it to "org.springframework" instead ;-/

Not sure in detail what was the problem Sun had standardizing Java via the ECMA/ISO, but I know Bruno Souza was a Sun employee back then and he briefly mentioned there were issues. Most importantly ECMA/ISO are NOT Open standards, we faced such problems extending JSR 363 to use the ISO 80000 catalog. It is not openly available, maybe Microsoft as we know it today (much different from Microsoft back in 1996/7) somehow negotiated a different way of licensing C# but ISO as a whole is not particularly open and usually charges license fees for most of their standards.

Werner


On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 7:10 PM, <ee4j-community-request@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: EE4J Project Proposals (Werner Keil)
   2. Re: EE4J Project Proposals (Reza Rahman)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 18:44:56 +0100
From: Werner Keil <werner.keil@xxxxxxxxx>
To: EE4J community discussions <ee4j-community@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [ee4j-community] EE4J Project Proposals
Message-ID:
        <CAAGawe0HuoWWKCs6xCTi6dficDpe64j3pNRUykUPpSXjYHP2Gw@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

What's also weird about JAX-RS is, that it was seemingly "forgotten" when
all of Java EE 8 (and earlier JSRs) moved to a new place under
https://github.com/javaee, instead it still remained in
https://github.com/jax-rs/api

What is not mentioned in the proposals of either, but seems far more
important IMO than whether it's called "Eclipse RESTful Web Services API
for Java", "JAX-RS" or something else is backward compatibility with the
Java EE 8 or 7 versions of these APIs. Is the new follow-up API allowed to
stay under "javax.ws.rs" or immediately forced to refactoring into
something else? (like "ee4j.ws.rs", "ee.<something>.ws.rs" or e.g. "
org.eclipse.ws.rs" just to mention some hypothetical examples)

Werner


On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 6:00 PM, <ee4j-community-request@eclipse.org> wrote:

> Send ee4j-community mailing list submissions to
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>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
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>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of ee4j-community digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: EE4J Project Proposals (Markus KARG)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2017 18:07:49 +0100
> From: "Markus KARG" <markus@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: "'EE4J community discussions'" <ee4j-community@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: [ee4j-community] EE4J Project Proposals
> Message-ID: <002a01d36546$c5179710$4f46c530$@eu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I don't understand that new versions of the JAX-RS specification shall be
> done, but at the same time it would violate Oracle's naming rights if we
> call that new specification still "JAX-RS"??! That means, we have to rename
> the specification's name? BTW, a quick search in the WIPO Global Trademark
> Database did not bear any registration of the term "JAX-RS", neither by
> Oracle nor by others.
>
> -Markus
>
>
>
> From: ee4j-community-bounces@eclipse.org [mailto:ee4j-community-
> bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mike Milinkovich
> Sent: Donnerstag, 23. November 2017 18:25
> To: ee4j-community@xxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [ee4j-community] EE4J Project Proposals
>
>
>
> On 2017-11-23 11:58 AM, Markus KARG wrote:
>
> What is "the corresponding spec project"? For JAX-RS for example, Jersey
> is "just" the RI, and it is just the *current* RI.
>
>
> Exactly right.
>
>
>
>
> In the JCP we could decide to have future release of JAX-RS with different
> RIs.
>
>
> It is the intent of Oracle, IBM, Red Hat, and other participants that
> future versions of the JAX-RS specs will be done using a new spec process
> hosted at the Eclipse Foundation.
>
>
>
>
> So does that mean that from now on the JCP must stick with
> Eclipse-provided *current* RIs forever?
>
> Um. no. That would be dumb. And under the new spec process provisions will
> be made to allow new RIs to appear, as well as ensuring the creation of
> independent implementations.
>
> Actually I do not understand why the API project is not simply named
> "JAX-RS API", the TCK project "JAX-RS TCK" and the RI simply "Jersey"?
>
>
> Because those project names would violate Oracle's trademark rights in the
> "JAX-RS" name.
>
> --
> Mike Milinkovich
> mike.milinkovich@eclipse-foundation.org
> (m) +1.613.220.3223
>
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Message: 2
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2017 13:10:44 -0500
From: Reza Rahman <reza_rahman@xxxxxxxxx>
To: Werner Keil <werner.keil@xxxxxxxxx>,        EE4J community discussions
        <ee4j-community@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [ee4j-community] EE4J Project Proposals
Message-ID: <ace4df4f-3d16-3843-faf6-169bbc680788@xxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"

What Oracle has stated at least publicly so far is that existing
technologies can continue to use whatever packages they have now. How
exactly this squares with any consistent legal position with regards to
branding and trademarks I have absolutely no idea. This is probably one
of those compromises the sensible technical people were somehow able to
make with Oracle legal. Or at least let's hope so. Otherwise this entire
effort is dead in the water since it will have to break backwards
compatibility and force migrations.

Such is the nature of dealing with a company that still grapples with
understanding the value of openness to it's own technologies/business
and only deals with it when it absolutely has to. Even Microsoft didn't
have a problem fully granting C#/CLI to ECMA/ISO without strings
attached. Hindsight is twenty/twenty but of course all of this would be
a moot point if Sun had properly standardized Java via the ECMA/ISO like
it should have in the first place.

On 11/25/2017 12:44 PM, Werner Keil wrote:
> What's also weird about JAX-RS is, that it was seemingly "forgotten"
> when all of Java EE 8 (and earlier JSRs) moved to a new place under
> https://github.com/javaee, instead it still remained in
> https://github.com/jax-rs/api
>
> What is not mentioned in the proposals of either, but seems far more
> important IMO than whether it's called "Eclipse RESTful Web Services
> API for Java", "JAX-RS" or something else is backward compatibility
> with the Java EE 8 or 7 versions of these APIs. Is the new follow-up
> API allowed to stay under "javax.ws.rs <http://javax.ws.rs>" or
> immediately forced to refactoring into something else? (like
> "ee4j.ws.rs <http://ee4j.ws.rs>", "ee.<something>.ws.rs
> <http://ws.rs>" or e.g. "org.eclipse.ws.rs <http://org.eclipse.ws.rs>"
> just to mention some hypothetical examples)
>
> Werner
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 25, 2017 at 6:00 PM, <ee4j-community-request@eclipse.org
> <mailto:ee4j-community-request@xxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
>
>     Send ee4j-community mailing list submissions to
>     ee4j-community@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:ee4j-community@eclipse.org>
>
>     To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>     https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/ee4j-community
>     <https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/ee4j-community>
>     or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>     ee4j-community-request@eclipse.org
>     <mailto:ee4j-community-request@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>     You can reach the person managing the list at
>     ee4j-community-owner@eclipse.org
>     <mailto:ee4j-community-owner@eclipse.org>
>
>     When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>     than "Re: Contents of ee4j-community digest..."
>
>
>     Today's Topics:
>
>     ? ?1. Re: EE4J Project Proposals (Markus KARG)
>
>
>     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     Message: 1
>     Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2017 18:07:49 +0100
>     From: "Markus KARG" <markus@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:markus@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
>     To: "'EE4J community discussions'" <ee4j-community@xxxxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:ee4j-community@eclipse.org>>
>     Subject: Re: [ee4j-community] EE4J Project Proposals
>     Message-ID: <002a01d36546$c5179710$4f46c530$@eu>
>     Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>     I don't understand that new versions of the JAX-RS specification
>     shall be done, but at the same time it would violate Oracle's
>     naming rights if we call that new specification still "JAX-RS"??!
>     That means, we have to rename the specification's name? BTW, a
>     quick search in the WIPO Global Trademark Database did not bear
>     any registration of the term "JAX-RS", neither by Oracle nor by
>     others.
>
>     -Markus
>
>
>
>     From: ee4j-community-bounces@eclipse.org
>     <mailto:ee4j-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>     [mailto:ee4j-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
>     <mailto:ee4j-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>] On Behalf Of Mike
>     Milinkovich
>     Sent: Donnerstag, 23. November 2017 18:25
>     To: ee4j-community@xxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:ee4j-community@eclipse.org>
>     Subject: Re: [ee4j-community] EE4J Project Proposals
>
>
>
>     On 2017-11-23 11:58 AM, Markus KARG wrote:
>
>     What is "the corresponding spec project"? For JAX-RS for example,
>     Jersey is "just" the RI, and it is just the *current* RI.
>
>
>     Exactly right.
>
>
>
>
>     In the JCP we could decide to have future release of JAX-RS with
>     different RIs.
>
>
>     It is the intent of Oracle, IBM, Red Hat, and other participants
>     that future versions of the JAX-RS specs will be done using a new
>     spec process hosted at the Eclipse Foundation.
>
>
>
>
>     So does that mean that from now on the JCP must stick with
>     Eclipse-provided *current* RIs forever?
>
>     Um. no. That would be dumb. And under the new spec process
>     provisions will be made to allow new RIs to appear, as well as
>     ensuring the creation of independent implementations.
>
>     Actually I do not understand why the API project is not simply
>     named "JAX-RS API", the TCK project "JAX-RS TCK" and the RI simply
>     "Jersey"?
>
>
>     Because those project names would violate Oracle's trademark
>     rights in the "JAX-RS" name.
>
>     --
>     Mike Milinkovich
>     mike.milinkovich@eclipse-foundation.org
>     <mailto:mike.milinkovich@eclipse-foundation.org>
>     (m) +1.613.220.3223 <tel:%2B1.613.220.3223>
>
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