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Re: [ee4j-community] Time to play the game?
I think this is why a concerted effort is needed on the part of us all to demystify Java EE. Really the myth is both pervasive and unbelievable

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On 3 Nov 2017 20:45, "Daniel Dias Dos Santos" <daniel.dias.analistati@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Mihai,

Same thought bundle as you.

Here in Brazil-RJ, I do events about Java, and every time I talk to someone always has Spring / Boot in the middle, the word Java EE is half unknown for some and even its SPECs like CDI and Bean Validation, for example. This is why I asked when I was talking about MVC 1.0 that makes use of both, and did not get an answer that knew the same.

--
Daniel Dias dos Santos
Java Developer
Diretor SouJava & JCP Member
Linkedin: http://br.linkedin.com/in/danieldiassantos

2017-11-03 18:35 GMT-02:00 Mihai A. <amihaiemil@xxxxxxxxx>:

@Georgios,

Yes, what you say may also be valid. But when I said "they don't understand" I meant they have no clue what JavaEE is. To them, JavaEE means just (quote from one colleague): "you know, a webapp written with Java". Even the question "What is the reference implementation of JavaEE?" sounds strange. Some can't even distinguish JavaEE from Java as a language.

And I refer to all categories of experience, not just juniors. JavaEE has abstractized so much that you can develop an entire system and have no clue what's happening behind the courtains. Well, your deployable is a mess of useless dependencies, but somehow it works, everyone's happy.

So I think, in order to avoid the takeover of other, more verbose, technologies and practices, Eclipse Fdn has to put a *big* emphasys on tutorials and clear explanations of concepts. Even though those concepts are supposed to be understood by the majority.

Best regards,
Mihai


On Fri, Nov 3, 2017, 22:11 gbourant <gbourant@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hello everyone ,

Based in my personal experience as a young developer in Java EE ecosystem i think Java EE AS lacks of a central configuration system.

As a result it makes difficult for young developers to get started.

If you want to configure something you have to edit xml files or use AS's specific cli tools.

For example to connect in a database in Payara , you just provide the persistence.xml.

To achieve the same in Wildfly you must provide persistence.xml and configure the datasource in AS.

To simplify this we can have a file(config.json) and provide project's spesific configuration.

example

{
     "profile" : "full|web|micro"
     "datasources" : [],
     "app-server-config" : {
 
      }   
}

Based on the above idea we can get rid of persistance.xml or even any other *.xml files.

P.S. take it easy on me , it's the first time that i'm writing to a mailing list :-)

Thank you,
Georgios Bourantas

On Nov 3, 2017 2:34 PM, "Rodolfo Fortes" <rfortes@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
    Well, I guess that there isn't such thing like "fight back", I fight back enemys and I don't see this frameworks as it. Every framework has it uses, for a start-up I think this technologies could fit (Spring Boot), we can learn from their advacements and even incoporate it if it proves to be something that worth it (no shame on that).
    Docker it's something complementary I can still use it with my Java EE apps, doesn't see why not, It save some time to a new developer set-up a environment and it's more easy to control this environmen across all devs.
    And Jigsaw is here to stay, It's part of Java now, and in my point of view, a necessary one, I will use only the parts that suits my needs, I don't see how it could be a bad thing.

    But you have a point when you said " A lot of people seem to not understand JavaEE", here is where we can do something, we can teach and show the learn path for this awsome tool that is Java EE. I really didn't have someone to teach me so my path to learn it was a little bit rough, what has helped me along the way was the Java EE Tutorial and it's examples, I would like to say a big thank you for everyone involved in the Java EE Tutorial, I guess I wouldn't love Java EE like I do now and I don't know if I would have a job if weren't for you.
    That's it, we have a awsome and powerful tool, let's spread the good news.

On Fri, Nov 3, 2017 at 9:59 AM, Mihai A. <amihaiemil@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hello All,

I wanted to ask you how is JavaEE going to fight back to Spring and project Jigsaw?

Let me explain: 

These days, I noticed an increasing trend of developing Java (web)apps with Spring + Spring Boot, and running them with Docker. A lot of people seem to not understand JavaEE, they cannot use it properly so, naturally, they prefer to have a fat deployable and use Docker just as a simple OS wrap.

Then here comes project Jigsaw which, it seems to me, is an effort made in the complete opposite direction of JavaEE. I read this article that kept showing on my Twitter feed: 


Basically, with Jigsaw, we can create standalone Java apps which do not need a preset runtime anymore. It encourages developers to follow the monoliths path, building even fatter apps. Because hey, nobody wants to take care of setting the JRE. But they will still play Docker just to spin the app. Do you see the irony?

I cannot understand why more and more developers build fat applications and use Docker only as an OS bubble. Why don't they use Docker for what it was meant, for setting an environment, a platform (JavaEE) and keeping their applications lightweight?

These days, the developer, instead of focusing on lightweight, efficient projects, is burdened with having to know everything: the app couples together (tightly!) concepts such as Spring Boot, Jigsaw, Docker. Everyone is still happy, they enjoy it, not thinking that we are throwing away many years of progress.

Any thoughts on this topic? It's a rather grim view, I know, but I am really curious of what the experts believe. 

Best regards,
Mihai Andronache

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