I agree with your analysis, and I’d
love to convince everyone you’re right and to start from the Platform
runtime as the starting point, but…
My first objection to your argument is
that people, in general, don’t analyze before they act, they just react
to what they see. That’s why this “what new people see first”
exercise is, IMHO, a great thing.
My second comment concerns where you
mention that “some of us have just grown used to doing things a certain
way”… I’m not nearly so worried about “us”, the
ones who’ve been with Callisto through it all,… I’m concerned
about the new user. Again, I like the direction of the “what people see
first” effort. (Coming from TPTP, I would also like something there for
people coming in from a desire for testing and performance tools… but I
don’t think I can make the same “preponderance of users”
argument WTP does! J)
I’ve been dealing with a couple of
people on the newsgroups who’ve struggled with getting TPTP to work for
them when starting with the Eclipse Platform *SDK*.
One initially tried to put our old release with the new Eclipse Platform…
that was easy enough to get around. But the fact that both new users started
from a Platform *SDK* made me look
to see why they do that, and the answer is that it just appears to be the
logical starting point since the Platform SDK gets top billing on the download
page that gets top billing when people go to the Eclipse main webpage.
Bottom line… when it’s “Callisto
time”, whatever single, PROMINENT link says that it is the place to go to
download software will be where people go, and whatever is the first and most
prominent item on that download page will be what people click on. They won’t
analyze and they won’t read past stuff they don’t need or want (at
least not for long… how does a new person KNOW that they don’t need
or want something?)… they’ll just assume that the first download
they see is the one we want them to start with.
Just my opinion. I know many have said
this is just a “simultaneous release”, and that “ease of
interoperable use” is still out there in the future. I’ll buy that…
but let’s at least make sure that the path of least resistance to *the* one single download they’ll
start with, possibly the *only*
one they’ll try before giving up, is the right place to start from. I
worry that the platform is TOO minimal, and that really naïve users won’t
know how to get from there to something usable, but then as you say, that’s
the foundation we’ve all been working from all this time.
That “first impression” is
going to be all important!
--
RDS
From:
cross-project-issues-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of David M Williams
Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2006 2:33
PM
To: Cross project issues
Subject: RE:
[cross-project-issues-dev] Getting started page
This is kind of an unfortunate late-breaking
development. How "too much work" was it?
Have
you also considered the extra download time and installed on-disk foot print?
Have
others (users) complained its too much work?
I
ask, because there is a huge difference .. the non-sdk versions (of platform
runtime feature,
pde
runtime, and java runtime) is only about 70 Megs (installed, and download, if
using Java 5,
where
the pack200 files are used) whereas the sdk versions (to get source and isv
docs) is about
130
megs installed, and 120 megs download).
Do
users consider this insignificant? Do the major need or want the source and ISV
docs?
Maybe
so. (but multiplied by 10's of 1000's of downloads, it is also an infrastructure
consideration).
Perhaps
a sort of compromise would be to have always have some nearby
handy
link to "how to minimize your downloads and installed footprint" ...
then users can
more
easily decide, and make their own choice, and we can see how many use it?
My
fear is that some of us have just grown used to doing things a certain way, and
its hard to
see
things from the users point of view.
Plus
... bugs/feature enhancements should be open
for
things you'd like to see improved, if you don't mind me saying so.
|
"Wayne Beaton"
<wayne@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent
by: cross-project-issues-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
06/16/2006 11:55 PM
|
Please
respond to
Cross project issues <cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
|
|
|
To
|
"'Cross project issues'" <cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
|
|
cc
|
|
|
Subject
|
RE: [cross-project-issues-dev] Getting
started page
|
|
I
chose the SDK because it is the closest thing that we have to an IDE. I
went through the steps required to build a Java
IDE starting from the
Platform Runtime Binaries and decided that it was
too much work. I figure
that new Java developers (i.e. folks using Eclipse
to build Java
applications) would be turned off it required too
many steps to just build a
Java IDE. I also figured that Eclipse plug-in/RCP
developers need the SDK.
Ideally, I'd like to point the user to a Java IDE
(i.e. no PDE or source
code), but that's a discussion for another day.
I'll likely have the C/C++
route start from the Platform Runtime Binaries.
I have planned to build an "Installing
Callisto Features" screen cam. I will
also hunt down/build some decent instructions.
I'll make sure that the JVM link is corrected.
BTW: It would be really handy if there were a way
to link directly to the
SDK or Platform Runtime Binaries. Even just a
label on the existing sections
on the download page would work. Or have I just
missed it? I'll hunt harder
and make a bug report...
Thanks,
Wayne
--
Wayne Beaton
The Eclipse Foundation
wayne.beaton@xxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.eclipse.org
http://wbeaton.blogspot.com/
http://www.planeteclipse.org/planet/
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
cross-project-issues-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
>
[mailto:cross-project-issues-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On
> Behalf Of Kim Moir
> Sent: June 16, 2006 4:40 PM
> To: Cross project issues
> Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev]
Getting started page
>
>
> Looks good!
>
> My comments:
> With these pages, it states to download
the eclipse SDK. On
> the existing Callisto page
>
http://www.eclipse.org/callisto/discovery.php, it states to
> download the platform runtime and run update
against the
> Callisto update site to get the other
features. Which is
> correct? Also, today we are only
providing runtime features
> to the Callisto update site.
>
> There should be a link to the page that
describes how to use
> update manager to install the Callisto
features. This will
> alleviate a lot of newbie questions for
people new to eclipse
> or unfamiliar with running update manager.
>
> The link to the JVMs page should point to the
3.2 page when
> it is available.
>
> I agree with Pascal's statement regarding
managing
> expectations. Although Callisto is
targeted to vendors
> consuming eclipse, it will appeal to the
broader user
> community. I would expect more
integration with the next
> year's simultaneous release but we should not
try to raise
> expectations so that a regular user or
journalists look to
> Callisto to provide a integrated product and
are disappointed.
>
> Kim
>
>
>
>
>
> "Wayne Beaton"
<wayne@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent by:
cross-project-issues-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
>
> 06/16/2006 02:18 PM
> Please respond to
> Cross project issues
<cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>
> To
> <cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> cc
> Subject
> [cross-project-issues-dev] Getting started
page
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hey folks. We've been putting some thought
into some "getting started"
> information for the Callisto landing page.
What we're
> thinking is that we'll include the three
fancy graphics on this page:
>
> http://eclipse.org/callisto/getstarted.php
>
> Onto the landing page.
>
> So...
>
> I'm curious to learn how you feel about this
page. Is it a
> good idea? Does it come close to providing
what folks need?
> Do you like the format? Is the way it works
more or less obvious?
>
> Feedback and comments welcome.
>
> I know that the C/C++ page doesn't exist yet.
That's next
> (assuming enough of you like what's there so
far).
>
> And, I need a good concise (i.e. one
sentence) description of
> DataTools.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Wayne
> --
> Wayne Beaton
> The Eclipse Foundation
> wayne.beaton@xxxxxxxxxxx
> http://www.eclipse.org
> http://wbeaton.blogspot.com/
> http://www.planeteclipse.org/planet/
>
>
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>
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