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Re: [tools-pmc] [Request] Buildship - Appeal of PC decision

Waiting for me? I was waiting for everyone else! :)

But, I think Doug's statement is accurate, that any formal "appeal" the Tools PMC could do, has been done through the Planning Council's Exception process, which has already happened. So, I don't think the Tools PMC is the right vehicle for further "appeals". Though, I am obviously not the best person to say "we disagree with the Planning Council", since I chair that council, and I agree with their processes and decision -- so, guess I would have to recuse myself if others on the Tools PMC wanted to do something else. (And, if you do, please feel free to. Wayne would be the one to know what that something else, might be, but as far as I know, it is an appeal to the Board of Directors, that the project has been treated unfairly or in a way not in accordance with our principles and by-laws. But, again, Wayne would be the one to know about formal appeals process.]

But, I can give some even better advice. (Well, better, in my opinion). Don't worry so much about "the release train". IMHO, we would be doing you a disservice to "shackle" you to the release train's schedule (and hence EPP schedule).  

As I outlined in my note to your dev list, you can still release in June, just as a regular project, and still be available to the community in a number of different ways. Be creative.

Also, in this note chain, you mention you could not join the release train until June 2016, but that is not true ... sounds like someone has given you the wrong information ... but you could join in SR1 (September) and we, the Tools PMC (as well as many others) can help make sure you are ready for that. Well, I mean you could, unless you all were planning on a very long vacation, or doing some other work for the next 3 months and not work any more on these Eclipse plugins.

But, in addition, an important point is that new projects often find they want/need to do frequent releases (sometimes a month apart!), and in my opinion, that is easier to do (for you and especially for your users) if you don't need to worry about the release train's schedule and that one huge repository.

I could go on and on about pros and cons of the release train, and its history, and it's purpose, but the bottom line is it should not be that limiting, to not be in it, And, if it is important to you to be in it, you only have to wait until September.  

If I can help in ways besides "appeals", let me know and I would be glad to. Otherwise, I think Wayne would be the one to talk to. And, Wayne, if you want to arrange a call with the Tools PMC because you have something in mind that I'm not aware of, that's fine with me, but, I believe I should recuse myself since I have multiple roles here at Eclipse, and don't want to inhibit what ever else you had in mind.

Thanks again, Hans and Etienne,  for joining Eclipse.

From:        Doug Schaefer <dschaefer@xxxxxxx>
To:        Tools PMC mailing list <tools-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx>,
Date:        04/20/2015 11:10 PM
Subject:        Re: [tools-pmc] [Request] Buildship - Appeal of PC decision
Sent by:        tools-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx

Sorry, I was waiting for David to comment. I don’t really have anything to add. I believe the PC was aware of all of this information when the PC decision was made. And I gave it a good fight. I’m not sure there’s any more the PMC can do. But I’d attend a call if we thought it would be fruitful.


From: Wayne Beaton <wayne@xxxxxxxxxxx>
The Eclipse Foundation
Tools PMC mailing list <
Monday, April 20, 2015 at 5:00 PM
tools-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx" <tools-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Re: [tools-pmc] [Request] Buildship - Appeal of PC decision

Hello Tools PMC,

In case it's not clear, Etienne is seeking your direct help in appealing the decision made by the Planning Council.

If it would be helpful, I can schedule a conference call to bring the parties together and discuss the issue. My calendar has some availability on Wednesday.

Please let me know I how I can help.


On 17/04/15 12:00 PM, Etienne Studer wrote:
Dear EMO and Tools PMC

We would like to ask for your support and assistance in appealing the decision taken by the PC that Buildship is not accepted into the Eclipse Mars simultaneous release.

There are several reasons why we think an appeal is justified:

The decision process did not involve the actual project leads of Buildship. We could have given clarifying input on several of the discussed items and most likely could have resolved some of the expressed concerns.

One of the concerns expressed was that Buildship would not meet the quality expected by the Eclipse community. We believe that these concerns are not justified since Gradleware consists of highly qualified, experienced software developers that know how to deliver reliable software to large audiences. On top of that, we have received excellent mentorship from Wayne Beaton to ensure we match the requirements for inclusion in the simultaneous release. We have also already received and incorporated feedback on Buildship from Eclipse experts like Stefan Oehme, Eike Stepper, and Lars Vogel. Additionally we have been developing and using the core of the Buildship for internal projects since the middle of last year.

There are many developers and companies asking (screaming) for first-class Gradle support in Eclipse, as we know from the Gradle community. We have already asked for and still gather feedback from some of these individuals and entities to ensure the already provided features are functional and useful. Additionally, as of next week, vogella gmbh, the company of Lars Vogel, will bring in their Eclipse expertise and contribute to the development of Buildship throughout the rest of the year on a regular base. This will further ensure Buildship is developed and integrated the Eclipse-way.

Gradleware has invested a lot into Buildship. Also based on the perspective of being included in the Mars release, we as an organization had made some painful prioritization decisions not to do other important work so that we can be ready with Buildship for Eclipse Mars. The Buildship team has been working full-time and with total focus on Buildship, and will continue to do so. We do not take the commitments that come with the inclusion into Eclipse Mars lightly. We are fully committed. We have proven over the past few months that we react very quickly to match any inclusion requirements.

Gradle has a high amount of traction in the enterprise. LinkedIn, Netflix, Twitter, Google, Nike, Gap, and many others rely strategically on Gradle. Offering them first-class Gradle support in Eclipse is a must in order for Eclipse to remain relevant. Waiting with the inclusion of Buildship into the simultaneous release until June 2016 will continue to make users and companies switch to IntelliJ IDEA which already has a very decent Gradle integration today, and which will have an even deeper integration with Gradle in the upcoming releases.

Kind Regards, the Buildship Project Leads

Hans Dockter, CEO of Gradleware and Founder of Gradle
Etienne Studer, VP of Product Tooling Gradleware

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Wayne Beaton
The Eclipse Foundation

          France 2015
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