Re: [stellation-res] Proposed Changes in Bugzilla (#31581 )

["Jonathan Gossage" <jonathan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Wright - IBM Research" <jwright@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <stellation-res@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 4:17 PM
Subject: Re: [stellation-res] Proposed Changes in Bugzilla (#31581 )


> At 03:25 PM 2/12/2003, Jonathan Gossage wrote:
>
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Mark C. Chu-Carroll" <mcc@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >To: "Stellation-res" <stellation-res@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 11:36 AM
> >Subject: Re: [stellation-res] Proposed Changes in Bugzilla (#31581 )
> <major snip>
> > > Absolutely, plugins are one of the mechanisms we should support. I'd
> > > love to see a sort of standard library of scripted behaviors for
> > > different purposes, each packaged up as a plugin.
> > >
> > > I'd also like to find a way to provide a simple, lightweight scripting
> > > mechanism to allow people to attach scripts without all of the weight
> > > and complexity of plugins.
> <minor snip>
>
> >I strongly agree that a light-weight way of "scripting" behaviour is
> >desirable, however I have yet to see a scripting language that did not
feel
> >as "heavy-weight" as writing the behaviour in a full fledged programming
> >language. I personally feel that the way to get "light-weight"
programming
> >is via a really good API plus a set of, currently non-existent tools that
> >can automate the writing of common idioms below the method or function
> >level.
> >
> >BTW when you talk of Eclipse plugins as "heavy-weight" are you thinking
of
> >the writing of the plugin, the deployment or both. Is it possible that
what
> >we need is a simpler method of injecting custom behaviour into the
system?
>
> An Eclipse plug-in has a certain minimum level of infrastructure: it needs
> some basic scaffolding, a separate jar, and a separate folder under
> eclipse/plugins.
> It is also necessary to exit and restart the Eclipse workbench when you
> add, upgrade
> or remove a plug-in.  (While in theory one could perhaps modify the
> underlying jar while
> Eclipse was running, it seems pretty risky to me: I swore off
> self-modifying code more
> than 20 years ago, once I graduated from the Z80 SBC with 1KB RAM that I
> programmed in machine code using a hex keypad...)
>
> A script (Python or whatever) is typically a single file interpreted by a
> (hopefully) stable
> plug-in. Editing a script or trying a new one is a very low overhead
> activity, with
> very fast turnaround.   If the scripting plug-in has a halfway reasonable
> debugger, it's not
> (or rarely) necessary to run a second instance of Eclipse in order to
debug
> the scripted
> behavior.  While I debug using a second instance all the time, the 512MB
of
> RAM in my
> machine is barely enough.
>
> In many domains, scripting is easier for non-developers to learn (and to
> abuse, of course).
> This is particularly true if a domain- and task- specific scripting
> vocabulary is provided,
> so that script authors can work at a suitably high level of abstraction.
>
> Note: I exclude Javascript or, pardon me, ECMAscript, from the category of
> scripting languages. I worked with it, briefly, and would far rather use
VB
> if only those two were available (not saying much!). I'm still a Python
> newbie, but my limited experience with it has been very positive. It would
> be interesting to hear other suggestions; please consider ease-of-learning
> as well as expressive power and support for domain-specific vocabularies.
>
> - Jim
>
Do you know if there is a plugin that would allow Python to be used inside
Eclipse? While I have never used Python myself I have heard good things
about it. Maybe I have just not encountered a good one. BTW are you aware
that the Eclipse folks tried to add a scripting facility to Eclipse and then
backed off as they could not get a satisfactory result apparently. The first
cut code is in the CVS repository.

With regards to a scripting language, I suspect that there might be a
substantial job in building a bridge between the language and the Stellation
objects to be manipulated.

Regards

Jonathan

Regards

Jonathan