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RE: [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT web site


By the same token, EMF started at but you won't find
signs of that.   The E in EMF even stood for e-tools.  But when we moved it
to Eclipse, we stripped all that is IBM from it, except for the copyrights.
I think that's very important.  Even if oAW is not a big corporate brand,
it at least gives the appearance of commercial interests being involved.
After all, folks do consulting under this brand.  And of course we greatly
value your contributions.  After all, GMF is making good use of Xpand!
It's the individuals making the contributions that we'd like to recognize;
their associated entities should play a secondary role at best.  I'd like
to see Eclipse provide some type of "list of credits under help" where
contributors, committers, and their sponsoring affiliations could be
advertised.  I think that would be the appropriate place for non-Eclipse
bands to appear.   I think the oAW brand is only appropriate as an external
distro, like MyEclipse...

Ed Merks/Toronto/IBM@IBMCA
mailto: merks@xxxxxxxxxx
905-413-3265  (t/l 969)

             "Bernd Kolb"                                              
             de>                                                        To
             Sent by:                  "'Richard Gronback'"            
             modeling-pmc-boun         <richard.gronback@xxxxxxxxxxx>, 
             ces@xxxxxxxxxxx           "'Ian Skerrett'"                
             10/19/2007 02:27          PMC members mailing list'"      
             PM                        <modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx>,     
                                       "'Markus Voelter'"              
             Please respond to                                          cc
                PMC members                                            
               mailing list                                        Subject
             <modeling-pmc@ecl         RE: [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT
       >             web site                        

Ian, Rich, Ed, Jean

openArchitectureWare has been a project which has started independent of
Eclipse and has been integrated into GMT at some point. Hence it does have
its own brand and a quite large community including a webpage with a forum
on it. Just to clarify, oAW is driven by individuals, not by a company.
of the developers are not paid for what they do to oAW, at least not
directly. It is one of the purposes of GMT to provide a way of integrating
promising new or existing projects into the Eclipse universe.

However, we are aware that for openArchitectureWare this is a temporary
state: at the moment we are in the process of splitting oAW into several
pieces that will end up in various Eclipse Modeling project, dropping the
openArchitectureWare name in the process.

For example, the process has been finished for the Modeling Workflow Engine
(MWE) which can now be found in EMFT and is being removed from
openArchitectureWare. If you have a look at the code and the documentation
you?ll find no references to openArchitectureWare anymore. The same will be
true for our Xpand contribution to the model-to-text component; it is
currently in the process of being migrated to M2T.

After we finished this process, openArchitectureWare will be much less
important. Our goal is to keep the "brand" oAW as a kind of "distribution"
of well-cooperating Eclipse modeling components, combined with a set of
experimental modeling related tools. We hope to finish this process within
the next few weeks.

I'd just want to make one remark w/r/t the branding of components. I think
the modeling project is different from the rest of the Eclipse projects.
Here we have e.g. a project called Model-to-model. It contains several
languages (components), basically doing the same. It is ok to have these
different languages with the same functionality. However, it is important
show the user when he should/could use which component. Thus, in EMP
components are much more independent from each other than in all other
Eclipse projects. I think it is good here to have a little branding (within
a limited range, I agree) which gives these components an identity. And
helps the users to distinguish them

Best regards,


Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Bernd Kolb

(Beratung & Coaching)
Bernd Kolb
Franz-Marc Str. 35
89520 Heidenheim

Mobil: 0163/7321605

From: Richard Gronback [mailto:richard.gronback@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 7:40 PM
To: Ian Skerrett; ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx, PMC members mailing list; Bernd
Kolb; Markus Voelter
Subject: Re: [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT web site

Thanks for the ATL observation, Ian.  I was under the impression that our
?identity crisis? components were all within GMT.  ATL has graduated from
GMT recently, as have several components of oAW, but I see they still have
reference to the ATLAS Group on their page.  This should be removed, along
with other references such as the Acknowledgement section at the bottom of
this page:  Of
course, the logos are not what you mean, right?  We have lots of logos in
use within Modeling.

Until such time there is a policy for advertising external entities
(commercial, academic, or otherwise) on the website, I agree
that all references should be removed.  As Ed mentioned, you won?t find
links to IBM or Borland on the EMF or GMF sites.

Regarding oAW, we have had discussions with them and decided the most
painless approach was to require they strip their oAW identity when
graduating to other modeling projects, also as Ed mentioned. The Xpand and
Workflow components are undergoing a namespace refactoring as they migrate,
and we?ll make sure there are no oAW on the M2T and EMFT websites.  We?ll
certainly try to speed up this process.

Another timely topic is the recent announcement of the oAW 4.2 release (  and  I don?t recall a release review
taking place for this component (or ever for GMT), and I see they are still
providing links to download from on their
download page.  Hopefully, we can correct this ASAP.


On 10/19/07 1:12 PM, "Ian Skerrett" <ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
What I would suggest is that the components of GMT should not have a
logo/graphic and have a descriptive name not a nickname.  I think this
go a long way to improving the situation.   Btw, this goes for all the
modeling sub-projects, for instance   Having all these different logos in my
opinion conveys a perception that
there is no strategy or integration between the components or the
My 2 cents?.
From: jbezivin@xxxxxxxxx [mailto:jbezivin@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jean
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 12:48 PM
To: PMC members mailing list
Cc: ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx; Bjorn Freeman-Benson;
Subject: Re: [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT web site

I agree with you.

I also agree that we have to improve much the organization of GMT.

For oAW matters, I will transmit these remarks to Markus Voelter.

I will discuss with him directly next week at OOPSLA because

he will be there.

Bjorn, will you be at OOPSLA and if yes would it be possible

to have a short meeting with Markus to stress the importance

of what has been said?

Best regards,


On 10/19/07, Ed Merks <merks@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

I'll draw Nick's attention to that link gone astray...

I agree with you.  As the various parts of the oAW technology are
incorporated into the other projects, like Xpand into M2T and MWE into
EMFT, I'll ask folks to avoid any non-Eclipse branding on the site.  You
won't find IBM/Rational branding nor Borland branding at Eclipse, so we
ought not be to seeing anything that isn't part of Eclipse's branding.
We'll queue up this topic for discussion at the next PMC meeting.

It would be good to improve GMT's image as well.  What are your thoughts on

this Jean?

Ed Merks/Toronto/IBM@IBMCA
mailto: merks@xxxxxxxxxx
905-413-3265  (t/l 969)            "Ian Skerrett"            <
ian.skerrett@ecl   <>
>                                                 To            Sent
by:                  <modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx <
>            modeling-pmc-boun                                          cc            ces@xxxxxxxxxxx          "'Bjorn
 Freeman-Benson'"                                      <
bjorn.freeman-benson@xxxxxxxxxxx>                                                                  Subject            10/19/2007
 12:06          [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT
web             PM                        site            Please respond
to            ian.skerrett@ecli    <> ;
Please              respond to              PMC
members               mailing
list            <modeling-pmc@ecl       <>

Modeling PMC,

Today, I was looking at the open Achitectureware project and in general the

GMT project.   I don?t usually provide feedback on project specific
branding and marketing but I thought compelled to do so in this case.

IMHO, from a branding and marketing perspective, the open Architectureware
project looks out of place in the context of the Eclipse community.  They
essentially look like they have parachuted in their existing project into
an Eclipse project web page.  They actually also seem to have another
project web site  I find it all very
confusing and probably detrimental to the Eclipse brand.

If I look at the GMT site, it seems like the open architectureware scenario

plays out again and again.   I see lots of project logos and cool names
that seem to have very little to do with Eclipse?  The perception I am left
with is that GMT is hovering up existing modeling projects but not really
integrating them into Eclipse?  I think what you are doing is creating an
incubator for new modeling projects, which is great, but in my opinion what
you are communicating is something very different and will hurt the
perception of the overall modeling project.

As I said, I usually don?t provide this type of feedback but in this case I
just had to say something.   I?d be happy to discuss further and if you

Btw, when I went to try to find the PMC mailing list, the link on this page points to


Ian Skerrett
Director of Marketing
Eclipse Foundation
613-224-9461 ext. 227
blog:  <>
modeling-pmc mailing list

modeling-pmc mailing list

Richard C. Gronback
Borland Software Corporation
+1 860 227 9215

modeling-pmc mailing list

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