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Sure, and that is allowed. Projects cannot and should not be force fed to use a specification just because it is there. I'm not sure what the point is about the community of committers being from Redhat is or why I should care if they are from Redhat.
My point is that specification WG should have a vested interest in making their specifications useable to the largest audience, including other WG specifications.
Tom
From: jakartaee-platform-dev <jakartaee-platform-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf of Werner Keil <werner.keil@xxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2022 2:23 PM
To: jakartaee-platform developer discussions <jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [jakartaee-platform-dev] Moving MicroProfile JWT to JakartaSecurity?
Mike/Tom, Vertx not only the Oauth2 module (https: //vertx. io/docs/vertx-auth-oauth2/java/) is a very good example for a project developed at Eclipse Foundation (also by a large number of committers from Red Hat) that interacts with OIDC or
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Mike/Tom,
Vertx not only the Oauth2 module (https://vertx.io/docs/vertx-auth-oauth2/java/)
is a very good example for a project developed at Eclipse Foundation (also by a large number of committers from Red Hat) that interacts with OIDC or JWT without using either Jakarta Security or MicroProfile JWT despite largely written in Java.
Werner
There is competition and there is reinventing the wheel. Both are absolutely allowed by the various projects at the Eclipse Foundation. I would not argue for the Eclipse
Foundation to put any inhibitors from such activities.
What I would like to see out of the specifications developed from the various Eclipse Specification working groups are technologies that are successful and generally
useable by the largest group possible. Something that always grates on me is when I hear one specification WG claim they cannot use a perfectly good and well specified technology simply because it is not from the X specification working group.
Something seems wrong if specifications developed within the various specification working groups are not viewed as highly attractive for use and depended upon by other
specifications being developed in a separate Eclipse working group. There may be valid reasons the current versions of the specification cannot be used, but these should be identified and hopefully expressed as valid requirements which could be considered
by the specification WG for enhancements to their future versions.
From: jakartaee-platform-dev <jakartaee-platform-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf of Mike Milinkovich <mike.milinkovich@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2022 1:39 PM
To: jakartaee-platform developer discussions <jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [jakartaee-platform-dev] Moving MicroProfile JWT to Jakarta Security?
Scott, Everyone will agree with your statement that there must be a good reason to develop a new specification. But “MicroProfile did it first” is not a valid argument
against doing so. Let me repeat what I said earlier: the official policy
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Scott,
Everyone will agree with your statement that there must be a good reason to develop a new specification. But “MicroProfile did it first” is not a valid argument against doing so.
Let me repeat what I said earlier: the official policy of the Eclipse Foundation is that projects and specifications can compete. The fact that something has been specified in MicroProfile does not prevent Jakarta EE from acting in the
best interest of its technology and community. Those decisions should be made based on the technical requirements, not on FUD.
As John Clingan pointed out, MicroProfile is proudly different than Jakarta EE. And those differences mean there are valid technical and non-technical reasons why an MP spec cannot be used by Jakarta EE. I think others have been pointing
some such reasons out on this thread.
To answer Mark Little’s earlier question: just because Jakarta EE *can* compete, does not mean that it *will* compete. That’s a decision to be made by the group within the governance and policy framework provided by the Eclipse Foundation.
Have a great weekend everyone.
mike.milinkovich@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Nov 11, 2022, at 12:15 PM, Scott Stark <starksm64@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
For specification projects in a related space, the existence of more than one needs to be justified. There is a reason everyone involved in specification/standards work raises this well trodden satire out at some point:
John,
Good points. There are indeed non-technical differentiators between MircoProfile and Jakarta EE. No one would dispute that.
But since we are discussing important philosophical points, let us add the fact that the Eclipse Foundation has always and will always permit competing projects, and that extends to specifications as well. We will never endorse the allocation of a market
to one coalition of vendors over another set of vendors. So just because MicroProfile has a specification in a particular domain in no way prevents Jakarta EE from creating a similar spec. That work may or may not be based on prior work done at MicroProfile,
so "move" doesn't really factor into the discussion.
As you point out, there are important non-technical differences between the two. Any one of those could be a good reason why Jakarta EE may wish to have its own specifications which overlap or compete with MicroProfile specs. In other words, there can be
a myriad of reasons why competing specs may occur: business, technical, community, vendor support, etc etc. But "MicroProfile did it first" does not provide it with any sort of veto.
On 2022-11-10 1:29 p.m., John Clingan wrote:
I’m inserting this as a general point in this discussion, which is related to joining the MP JWT call.
There are non-technical reasons MicroProfile exists. MicroProfile is a flatter working group with fewer processes, somewhat different values (like backwards compatibility differences), releases more often, and is $250,000 USD cheaper *annually* (for
large organizations) than joining Jakarta EE Working Group as a strategic member. Whenever talk of moving a specification to Jakarta, I feel the need to remind folks of the non-technical differences between Jakarta and MicroProfile.
For these reasons, I am against moving *any* specifications out of MicroProfile to Jakarta, although I am open to the idea of moving Jakarta specifications to MicroProfile. The exception is concurrency, which was always intended to move
to Jakarta.
MP JWT does define bindings for EJB, Servlets, JACC, JASPIC, etc.
True, although essentially spelling out everything is unnecessary if one just says that MP JWT in a Jakarta EE environment is/exposes itself as an Jakarta Security Authentication Mechanism. All those other things then follow from that.
Specifically this authentication mechanism bit is missing there. I do see identity store being mentioned, and perhaps it comes from the confusion that many people have between the concept of an authentication mechanism (FORM, BASIC, etc) and an identity store
(DB, LDAP, FILE, etc).
I'd be on board for making these kinds of changes and improvements in MP JWT. The next version planned is 3.0, so we can even make breaking changes if we needed to accommodate. The next MP JWT call is Thursday, November 17th at 8:00am
Pacific. Are you open to attending at least once and discussing? Here's the call information:
# Procedural
In CN4J we did agree to some technical principles. One of them is that duplication should be avoided.
That is basically a good thing. The problem here is a little that MP JWT in a sense "hi-jacked" the JWT authentication mechanism from underneath Jakarta Security. Of course it's not that black and white in practice, and there were many
valid arguments for MP to introduce JWT in the way it did. But the matter of fact remains that Jakarta Security planned for a number of authentication mechanisms that went beyond the ones provided by servlet, such as Open ID Connect (OAuth) and JWT.
These didn't make it into 1.0, and because of the move to Eclipse the new features effort was stalled for years. In that timeframe JWT was introduced in MP. Currently Jakarta EE is open for new features again, but it finds some features
are now "controversial" only because MP implemented them in the meantime. Again, there was no malintent (I was even part of the original MP JWT team then), but it's an unfortunate situation.
I do understand how things can feel that way from an emotional perspective. My emotional perspective is that we're fortunate to have this conversation at all, because when MicroProfile and MP JWT were created Java EE was dead with no
plans to continue. I'm thankful and proud of MicroProfile for its impact on the decision to open source Java EE. I'm happy that both Jakarta EE and MicroProfile now live at the Eclipse Foundation and are implemented side-by-side in most the major implementations.
Sure, we don't want duplication between specs, but we also don't want duplication between say two specs in Jakarta EE. Compared to the challenges we've faced over the last 6 or 7 years, this feels very manageable.
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Mike Milinkovich
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Eclipse Foundation AISBL
Twitter:@mmilinkov
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