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Re: [jakartaee-platform-dev] Transitioning Jakarta EE to the jakarta namespace

Thanks Phillip for taking the high road and acknowledging the possible validity of an opinion that might not be your own. It shows a strength of character that is rare indeed.

Branding is a funny thing. In the end, it is actually what a technology is building trust towards. J2EE was an incredibly strong brand, Java is one of the strongest brands around and Java EE was a strong enough brand too. None of this was an accident but took a lot of deliberation effort and consistency to build. Diluting things by trying to advance two different brands just makes it tougher for either to get established as a replacement to Java EE. Just look back to understand how hard it was to establish the Java EE brand to understand some of these very real issues. This perhaps is the simplest way to boil down the painful complexities we will need to all constantly deal with if the current situation becomes the norm.

Leaving the long term problems aside, let me tell you the most immediate problem I am seeing first hand. There are a lot of nervous people out there that had put their trust in Java EE. These people are now watching with concern as to what their future is. The worst case fear is that Jakarta EE is being quietly, deliberately and very prematurely killed off yet again by depriving it of resources. We need to do more to reassure these people and a clear, sensible alignment roadmap is very much needed. Without that, neither MicroProfile nor Jakarta EE might have much of an initial adopter and advocate population to work with. I do hope part of the thinking at some vendors is not that this population doesn't matter as they are going to build a customer base from ground up or the Java EE population is just going to go along with whatever they do. This was certainly the thinking behind the quiet attempt to kill off Java EE 8 (FYI the person behind this thinking thankfully has since been removed from Oracle and Oracle is now a slightly kinder, gentler beast as a result).

If this helps understand why I would like us to unify under Jakarta EE sooner than later, cool. If I just spent a lot of time on the obvious, apologies.

Reza Rahman
Principal Program Manager
Java on Azure

Please note views expressed here are my own as an individual community member and do not reflect the views of my employer.

Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: Phillip Kruger <phillip.kruger@xxxxxxxxx>
Date: 9/26/19 4:40 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: jakartaee-platform developer discussions <jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [jakartaee-platform-dev] Transitioning Jakarta EE to the jakarta namespace

Hi Reza.

I never thought of MicroProfile as a fork of Java EE, and if the MicroProfile community wants to merge with Jakarta then that would be great and I will support that. Even in that case,
I believe removing the brand from the namespace is an idea worth considering.

If we look at where we came from, J2EE that was re-branded to Java EE. Because we did not use j2ee in the namespace of the API and specification, that re-branding was fairly easy. javax namespace was/is used for more that just J2EE / Java EE. (MVC , JAXB, JCache etc).

Now we might think that we will never rebrand in the future, and that might be true. But these things happen (think wildfly-swarm to thorntail) and not coupling the brand to the namespace does give you a bit more options.

Maybe what you are saying is that Jakarta is that space, and there is a distinction between Jakarta and Jakarta EE. Then fair enough, so we need to start moving MicroProfile over to the Jakarta namespace. I would still argue that having a brand like Jakarta and then Jakarta EE 'product' will confuse developers in the future and we will continue to have to explain the difference, as these names are very similar. Kind of like explaining that Eclipse (IDE) is not the same as Eclipse Foundation.

Anyway, it was just an idea. Happy to leave it alone. I felt like speaking up as the rename is happening now and it's now or never. If it's a bad idea, no problem, let's move on :)


On Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 8:33 PM Reza Rahman <reza_rahman@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
This email chain is getting rather long for my email client. I am
truncating it to hopefully help that. Apologies for any inconvenience.

Phillip: Anyway ,happy to debate this - I might be wrong.

We can try, but it feels like our differences in this case might be too
fundamental to ever really converge. And to be honest I feel like most
things that I want to say I've already said in some way or the other.
However, perhaps it is useful to reiterate some key points from my
perspective very, very briefly. I'd rather we don't belabor them if we
didn't need to and perhaps simply agree to disagree.

* Firstly, I have a very hard time understanding why it is so difficult
to consider whether MicroProfile has already served it's purpose and now
it is time to think about how to gradually coalesce around Jakarta EE
stronger together, including beginning to define a sensible incubation
process. Forks rarely succeed. Having two forks of Java EE forever
probably reduces the chance of success even further, especially when
faced by competition the likes of Spring.

* MicroProfile has been around for almost three years now, unencumbered
by the need to compete for attention with Java EE releases and
development. To be honest, I have not seen that much adoption certainly
compared to Java EE releases. As a result, I think the effective
population that would be disrupted by a convergence that begins now is
rather small compared to people that have to deal with the consequences
of long term fragmentation.

* The people that would be disrupted would be disrupted anyway by the
javax -> jakarta move because MicroProfile in practicality is very
heavily dependent on Java EE.

Reza Rahman
Principal Program Manager
Java on Azure

Please note views expressed here are my own as an individual community
member and do not reflect the views of my employer.

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