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Re: [jakarta.ee-spec.committee] : Re: Discuss proposed Resolution for eliminating Optional aspects of Specifications

I agree -- we would have to (re)define what "optional" means in the Platform Spec.  I was going off of our current definition.  I wonder if we would have to use stronger terminology like maybe "deprecated".  Deprecated features are not portable and not used for ratification.

This approach would also get us closer to actually removing them from the Spec sometime in the future since they are marked "deprecated".

---------------------------------------------------
Kevin Sutter
STSM, Jakarta EE and MicroProfile architect @ IBM
e-mail:  sutter@xxxxxxxxxx     Twitter:  @kwsutter
phone: tl-553-3620 (office), 507-253-3620 (office)    
LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinwsutter

Part-time schedule: Tue, Wed, Thu (off on Mon and Fri)




From:        "Scott Stark" <sstark@xxxxxxxxxx>
To:        "Jakarta specification committee" <jakarta.ee-spec.committee@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date:        07/07/2021 11:19
Subject:        [EXTERNAL] Re: [jakarta.ee-spec.committee] : Re: Discuss proposed Resolution for eliminating Optional aspects of Specifications
Sent by:        "jakarta.ee-spec.committee" <jakarta.ee-spec.committee-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>




That is the same outcome as if optional features are removed, so I don't see how this differs. The only change to the spec would be to say that optional features are unportable and not used during specification ratification. 

I'm fine with requiring the removal of optional features from specifications as well. 


On Wed, Jul 7, 2021 at 11:15 AM Kevin Sutter <sutter@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Thanks for the pointers to the EFSP Issues, Scott.

I think this is a slippery slope when we're going to define a Ratified CI as the one that passes the TCK -- regardless if the optional features are implemented or not.  Let's pretend we have a CI that only implements the required features, nothing else (no entity beans, no web services, no jaxb, etc).  Are we going to allow that CI to be used for ratification of the Platform Spec?  If we do, then how are we going to determine whether the optional features are implementable or testable?


I can understand that we're trying to compromise on a solution here.  But, I don't think we should entirely remove the idea of not requiring optional features to ratify the Platform Spec.

---------------------------------------------------
Kevin Sutter
STSM, Jakarta EE and MicroProfile architect @ IBM
e-mail:  
sutter@xxxxxxxxxx    Twitter:  @kwsutter
phone: tl-553-3620 (office), 507-253-3620 (office)    
LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinwsutter

Part-time schedule: Tue, Wed, Thu (off on Mon and Fri)




From:        
"Scott Stark" <sstark@xxxxxxxxxx>
To:        
"Jakarta specification committee" <jakarta.ee-spec.committee@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date:        
07/07/2021 10:40
Subject:        
[EXTERNAL] Re: [jakarta.ee-spec.committee] : Re: Discuss proposed Resolution for eliminating Optional aspects of Specifications
Sent by:        
"jakarta.ee-spec.committee" <jakarta.ee-spec.committee-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>




A modification to the EFSP on this topic is underway. That requirement
will be removed and left to the working groups as per these two issues
on changes going into EFSP 1.3:

https://github.com/EclipseFdn/EFSP/issues/22
https://github.com/EclipseFdn/EFSP/issues/42

Other than the uncertainty of what a given profile requires, the major
practical impact of optional is that it introduces a bottleneck on
testing features that do not have unanimous support. So either remove
that or remove optional features. The former is a compromise the
addresses the request to have a measured removal of optional from
specifications.


On Wed, Jul 7, 2021 at 8:37 AM Kevin Sutter <
sutter@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> I think we're shifting the conversation...  We started with trying to define a means of removingoptional aspects of the Platform Specification.  But, now we're talking about removing the necessity to test optional aspects of the Platform.  Totally different conversation.
>
> Removing the necessity to test the optional features of a Spec by a ratified Compatible Implementation would require an adjustment to the EFSP:
>
> "A Specification Version must identify at least one Compatible Implementation under an Open Source License that implements all optional elements of the Specification and fulfills the requirements of all elements (including optional elements) of the TCK."
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------
> Kevin Sutter
> STSM, Jakarta EE and MicroProfile architect @ IBM
> e-mail:  
sutter@xxxxxxxxxx    Twitter:  @kwsutter
> phone: tl-553-3620 (office), 507-253-3620 (office)
> LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinwsutter
>
> Part-time schedule: Tue, Wed, Thu (off on Mon and Fri)
>
>
>
> From:        "Scott Stark" <
sstark@xxxxxxxxxx>
> To:        "Jakarta specification committee" <
jakarta.ee-spec.committee@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date:        07/06/2021 17:30
> Subject:        Re: [jakarta.ee-spec.committee] [External] : Re: Discuss proposed Resolution for eliminating Optional aspects of Specifications
> Sent by:        "jakarta.ee-spec.committee" <
jakarta.ee-spec.committee-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> ________________________________
>
>
>
> Correct. On Jul 6, 2021 at 3:04:09 PM, David Blevins <
dblevins@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: On Jul 6, 2021, at 6:33 AM, Scott Stark <sstark@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote: The minimum compromise approach Red Hat would support would be to remove any
> Correct.
>
> On Jul 6, 2021 at 3:04:09 PM, David Blevins <
dblevins@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> On Jul 6, 2021, at 6:33 AM, Scott Stark <
sstark@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> The minimum compromise approach Red Hat would support would be to remove any optional TCK sets as a requirement to ratify a profile specification. Just kicking this can down the road for another release without some remediation of the current burden optional features place on the ratification process is not acceptable.
>
> Confirming I understood correctly.  You would support an approach where the CMP/BMP TCK tests are still present in the TCK, but not required for ratification.  Of course any implementation that implements CMP/BMP would still be required to pass those tests.
>
> Did I read that correctly?
>
>
> -David
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>
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