Not frequently and not intentionally. Von: jakarta.ee-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jakarta.ee-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] Im Auftrag von Werner Keil
Gesendet: Freitag, 14. Februar 2020 17:15
An: Jakarta EE community discussions
Betreff: Re: [jakarta.ee-community] Jakarta EE Development Workspace - Slack invite Guess that means you never joined a Zoom or Webex call then either? ;-) +1 In fact, I will never use any proprietary means of communication, so I will never join slack. Feel free to use it, but you need to live with the fact that there will always be people not using it. -Markus I think that we're all on the same side here. The Eclipse Foundation doesn't provide any private channels for open source work. The three fundamental "rules of engagement" defined in the Eclipse Development Process are openness, transparency, and meritocracy; these rules (or values) are something that we expect our open source projects to observe. Note that we have a particular definition of "open"; when we use "open" in the context of the Eclipse Development Process, we mean "open to new ideas" (not just another word for transparent). So, when I say "open channel", I mean open for everybody to contribute (we often refer to this as the "level playing field"). Slack offers some opportunities for private communication between small groups. I expect that any private forms of communication be treated like a "hallway conversation", along the lines of what happens among peers who work together in the same office. Any discussion related to the development of the open source projects and their community should be captured and shared using open channels. These channels need to be accessible in a way that allows others to have a fighting chance of understanding what you're doing and how to join in on the effort. I personally dislike the use of Slack for open communication. However, if the community can make it work while following the rules of engagement, then go for it. Deciding on what is the "right way" is pretty hard to get exactly right the first time. Styles of communication evolve and we try new things; some of those things work and some do not. Ultimately, the community will decide. Note that reducing barriers for entry is an important part of being open. Even just agreeing to the terms of use for a cost-free Slack account may be a barrier for entry for some members of the community. We all have a responsibility to avoid loaded language that far too easily sends the wrong message, especially if someone points out the problem. At this point, I would ask the Eclipse Foundation to help arbitrate what is inclusive and non-inclusive behaviour in this context. I am happy to follow through with what actions and processes are necessary to help correct this issue. We need to get this stuff right and now is the time. Jakarta EE Ambassador, Author, Blogger, Speaker Please note views expressed here are my own as an individual community member and do not reflect the views of my employer. Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- Date: 2/12/20 3:04 AM (GMT+00:00) Subject: Re: [jakarta.ee-community] Jakarta EE Development Workspace - Slack invite Let me interject here and excuse you from trying to project the meaning i choose to use for ossDOERS. in OSS you or anyone here or in any collaborative ecosystem is a DOER in my book if that someone follow simple actions and understand the differences on what it is to own "easy work" or "cheap-collaboration". This is my view and I will continue to use it as such b/c I am given the opportunity by such as follow ups like yours to clarify erroneous assumptions to what a word actually means, so thank you! Fehler! Es wurde kein Dateiname angegeben. Tweet to enable re-tweet at will! :) Again, I do have to say I object to substantial dialog and decisions taking place outside of mailing lists. If this must happen such as for a GitHub PR, I don't see why it is so difficult to refer people in the mailing list to it and try to limit out of band communication. JCP specification leads did that for years and it contributed to a more inclusive environment. I do have what is hopefully a simple and reasonable request. Please accept this in the proper spirit in which the request is being made. Can we kindly stop the inadvertant suggestion that some contributions are more valuable than others such as using loaded language like "doers", "bystanders", "commentators", etc? We all know what the various types of contributions are. Language matters. We should be going out of our way to ensure all people feel their good faith contribution is valuable. Inclusion is key to building any community and it will be key to rebuilding this one too. I can tell you that as the moderator for the Jakarta EE Ambassadors communication channels I would seek to limit such language precisely for reasons of inclusion. Even if all one does is listen to and keep track of what is going on, that is an invaluable contribution. Please be a bit more mindful of such factors. It is not that hard. Jakarta EE Ambassador, Author, Blogger, Speaker Please note views expressed here are my own as an individual community member and do not reflect the views of my employer. Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- Date: 2/11/20 11:24 PM (GMT+00:00) Subject: Re: [jakarta.ee-community] Jakarta EE Development Workspace - Slack invite I would say the main place for "doers" in Jakarta EE or elsewhere are the collaborative spaces on GitHub, whether some projects have a wiki or issue trackers. Whether it's the MP forum/list or the old Java EE slack channel which I haven't followed for a long time now, only a small number of people discussing in either of them are actively contributing code to Jakarta EE (or MP) Others are merely bystanders or occasional commentators, either because of their subsequent companies not allowing them to contribute as they otherwise wished to or for other reasons... ohh, I see your point, thanks for allowing me to clarify #usualsuspects Werner. When i mean tracing, I mean actual EXECUTION that doesn't stay in just words or "well-wishes". The slack is for doers, implementers that bring not only brainstorming to live but the most valuable, solutions to OSS. Bias, I actually detest slack for "tracing" actual conversations about "some" particular topic. Public email forums enable consumption now or later or never but it is there to allow subscribers to "step into the conversation and take time to work on something, even if months have passed" etc. With slack, if not on- pin-in and chosen as a KEEP in mind, anything gets disregarded as irrelevant. Simply put, unpaid slack for some communities works wonders if slack is not used as the source of truth. For instance, I left the MP slack way ago, no value. I prefer the forum. Same for Jkta. I see no value on a slack group given current public forums, so I won't be joining. But my preference is not dictated to others who might see value. Choice, I am 1 Jakartee. Tracing, but how long does it live? We heard in this thread, that free Slack channels only persist 10k messages, therefore unless Adam, Tomitribe or someone else contributed a lot more money to persist that channel ever since it started, it is quite short-lived even if there may have been fewer participants compared to what Jakarta EE might see. If it was commercial, then why waste money on a duplication, why not contribute to Eclipse Foundation, making that Jakarta Slack channel more scalable instead? ;-) On the contrary, the javaee-wg has brought the most valuable open conversations that actually lead to much of what it is today. As stated earlier on this thread, there is value on tracing what has come to past when it is started by individuals. Also, the slack is not only about Java EE or Jkta. It goes beyond that and has been since its creation. To say, that it needs to cease to exist means that it was mainly created just for EE, which is not the truth. As such, its value lives beyond Jakarta EE. Amelia, Was the Slack channel, Adam, you and a few others had created for Java EE some while ago terrible for the project's goal? Radu, could you expand what you mean with: "... but is there something wrong with mattermost, which I'm seeing that some projects have already adopted, for example https://www.eclipse.org/che/community/ " Emily, I disagree with your statement on light usage of Slack for Jakarta. If with this Slack, they point is to trigger CALL-2- ACTION and being ok to be contacted privately to get stuff done, they how is that beneficial to the project and what it actually means to be scalable and enable others to become DOERS without barriers of communication debt? For everyone, lets watch with care our discipline and ownership of the OSS tools we might choose to adopt. Just because something is meant to be tried it doesn't mean that it is meant to be protected if it is proven terrible for the project's goal. Sometimes, we fear to move on and cut debt, thats a choice but it is a human choice. None can dictate how Jakartees will come together and find the most fantastic way to be inclusive and patient while cooperating. Not EF, not a single one of us. Our actions will provide the best feedback b/c each single time, actions lead to results. Value will be seen with tracind adding to. I am always a proponent of fluid process and rustless adjustments in OSS> I have and bare no loyalty to tooling or processes that do not work to braid healthy ecosystems. hi, not to understate the qualities of slack, but is there something wrong with mattermost, which I'm seeing that some projects have already adopted, for example https://www.eclipse.org/che/community/ On 11 Feb 2020, 20:50 +0200, Emily Jiang <emijiang6@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, wrote: I share the similar view with Tanja on this. With slack, you want to have an immediate response for something trivial such as "I saw a link regarding Jakarta JMS announcement somewhere I could not find. Does it exist? " . "My PR is ready for review. Can someone take a look?". This is kind of informal chat. It is also suitable for something trivial and you will worry about sending spams etc. For anything significant and need a lot of discussions, I think mailing list is a better place. I think we need to be frank with ourselves: no one can follow up all conversations and we don't need to. We should accept it. It is not a bad thing. Let's not to block the communications just becasue we cannot keep up with it. Personally, I don't read every slack message and I don't have time to respond and process every message on the channels I was invited. It is ok. I can always ask questions there and get helped. I'll help others if I am available or am directly tagged. While Slack is becoming a communication standard, it is still relatively informal way of communicating. The voting, decision making and key messages will be sent via email still. I can see on Slack one can initiate a debate or discussion, but we need to mindful that not everyone uses Slack so email had to be official way of communicating. Thanks, Tanja On 2020-02-11 10:14 a.m., Werner Keil wrote: Is it possible for Eclipse webmasters to set up some batch to preserve them or does Slack have something against that? The workspace uses the free plan so only the last 10k messages are archived. From all i know they are always persisted. Hello Tanja and thanks for the invite!
Is there a web page that archives the Jakarta EE Development Slack
conversations? If yes, that might be useful for referencing
conversations that occur there.
Thanks,
Scott
On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 3:55 PM Tanja Obradovic
<tanja.obradovic@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> Hello dear Jakarta EE communities!
>
> this is just a quick invite to all interested to communicate via SLACK
>
> Please join Jakarta EE Development Slack Workspace !
>
> Best,
> Tanja
> --
>
> Tanja Obradovic
>
> Jakarta EE Program Manager | Eclipse Foundation, Inc.
>
> Twitter: @TanjaEclipse
>
> Eclipse Foundation: The Platform for Open Innovation and Collaboration
>
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