Re: [jakarta.ee-community] About Profiles

[Adam Bien <abien@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

If the Main Profile is lean, I would not care about the additional stuff I'm not using now.

E.g. my OS provides far more functionality, than I'm actually using. I could alway compile my own Linux kernel to get the maximum optimization, but I don't think the effort actually pays of. 

For me "compiling the kernel" is similar attitude to "choose the right profile". 


> On 17. May 2018, at 15:36, Werner Keil <werner.keil@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> The arguments are largely dominated by vendors and having at most one representative of the community in each WG committee won't improve that a lot either, but profiles are clearly also beneficial for users/developers. Both companies trying to build up internal resources for Java/Jakarta EE projects as well as everyone who provides help with those kinds of projects. Whether it is independent consultants or large outsourcing and off-shoring vendors around the world. They also have to keep their staff educated and doing so for a subset like the web or "service" layer may be a lot easier to build and maintain than "full stack" experience all the way to details of JMS, EJB or JCA.
> 
> Werner
> 
> 
> On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 3:28 PM, Mark Little <mlittle@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Dominik, you may feel that my examples are not valid but that doesn't
> mean they are actually invalid :) The discussions around profiles date
> back many years in the JCP and unfortunately I'm not able to check at
> the moment as to whether those were public. But suffice it to say we
> (Red Hat), IBM, Oracle and many others here, including users, provided
> examples of why profiles were a good thing and necessary based on many
> many years of real world use cases and thousands of customers asking
> for precisely that sort of thing. As I said earlier though, you are
> not alone in only wanting to have the full profile and that's fine
> too. Maybe others, such as Tomitribe who only provide the WebProfile,
> will chime in with some examples of their own but I can tell you that
> since Red Hat implemented both the WebProfile and full profile in our
> community and product app servers we have seen significant adoption of
> both and those developers make the choice based on some of the reasons
> I gave and they clearly understand why and believe their actions are
> valid too :)
> 
> Mark.
> 
> On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 1:59 PM, Dominik Hufnagel
> <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > Well, there certainly are users which are not happy with just the full
> > profiles and I am sure there are reasons. I do not say there is no need for
> > more profiles, but until now I have not seen reasons for it, which justifies
> > it.
> >
> > For me, your arguments do not justify the complexity for users having to
> > choose between profiles. If I start a project and having to make decisions
> > on what profile to use, how would that be less expensive than running a
> > cloud machine with 50MB more for years? Let’s take AWS for example, where a
> > block storage costs about 0.1-0.2$ per GB per Month.
> >
> > Regarding boot times, may you/one can specify what fast means? I have a
> > wildfly app booting in < 10 seconds where a spring boot app I am currently
> > working on (with almost just REST interfaces) needs > 15 seconds to boot.
> >
> >
> >
> > If you think about the buzzword IoT, then clearly the full profile may not
> > suit. But I am not sure if this has to be covered under Jakarta EE.
> >
> >
> >
> > I am with you in terms of complexity and portability. For small
> > applications, where mostly one war or app is deployed, it would be
> > beneficial to be able to configure the Application Server (DB, JMS-Queues,
> > …) with any mechanism from inside the war (let’s say a properties file or
> > something). I would love to see such mechanisms in Jakarta EE, but this is
> > not really related to profiles.
> >
> >
> >
> > I also think it would be beneficial to have a legacy profile for the stuff
> > that is not anymore ‘state ot the art’, so that the main profile could be
> > more lean.
> >
> >
> >
> > To be clear: I have no final opinion about this topic yet. I just like to
> > see some valid arguments for having more profiles or for not have more
> > profiles. What I also did not see in this discussion so far, are examples
> > for profiles and how they fit together. This would help getting a clearer
> > image of the needs from those who argue for having more profiles.
> >
> >
> >
> > Dominik
> >
> >
> >
> > Von: jakarta.ee-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:jakarta.ee-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] Im Auftrag von Mark Little
> > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 17. Mai 2018 13:47
> >
> >
> > An: Jakarta EE community discussions <jakarta.ee-community@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Betreff: Re: [jakarta.ee-community] About Profiles
> >
> >
> >
> > This isn’t just about vendor choice. You are certainly not alone in being
> > happy with the full profile option. However, there are other classes of
> > users/developers that aren’t and these have existed since the dawn of J2EE.
> > For example, some people want to deploy their favour app server on to
> > constrained devices which may be running on the cloud where an additional
> > 50MB costs real money when run for hours or days or weeks or longer. Some
> > developers want to reduce the maintenance complexity or boot time of their
> > favourite app server by stripping out those capabilities they don’t want.
> > Now you could argue that these developers could just do this themselves
> > anyway, e.g., JBossAS has supported this kind of pruning from the start.
> > However, if you want portability and interoperability of your apps so you’re
> > not tied to a specific app server implementation/vendor, having standardised
> > profiles is the right approach.
> >
> >
> >
> > Mark.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 16 May 2018, at 23:16, Dominik Hufnagel <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > As a user of JavaEE, I do not get the idea behind having multiple profiles.
> > May someone can explain the benefits for users? If I can have a single
> > profile with all available features, I would take it and I do not bother
> > using a server which is 50MB larger of one with a „smaller“ profile. I can
> > understand that it could be harder for vendors to enter the market having to
> > provide the full profile. But for me, this would not be an argument for
> > using smaller profiles. I’d rather take a server from a vendor which offers
> > me the full profile.
> >
> >
> >
> > If I would use the MicroProfile and want to have JPA, do I have to add
> > external dependencies? I really like some of the new APIs of the
> > MicroProfile and would be happy to see them coming to JakartaEE.
> >
> > Dominik
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Von: jakarta.ee-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:jakarta.ee-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] Im Auftrag von Mark Little
> > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 16. Mai 2018 11:42
> > An: Jakarta EE community discussions <jakarta.ee-community@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Betreff: Re: [jakarta.ee-community] About Profiles
> >
> >
> >
> > Hopefully others have responded already but … it’s for both: quick summary …
> > vendors so they can ensure conformance and users so they can ensure
> > portability and interoperability of their apps.
> >
> >
> >
> > Speaking with my MicroProfile hat on, I for one would not want to trade the
> > current MicroProfile for a full Jakarta EE profile and neither would our
> > users.
> >
> >
> >
> > Mark.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 7 May 2018, at 17:33, arjan tijms <arjan.tijms@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > So then the first question is perhaps; who wants profiles and benefits from
> > it? Is a profile intended for vendors or for users?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> >
> > Mark Little
> >
> > mlittle@xxxxxxxxxx
> >
> >
> >
> > JBoss, by Red Hat
> >
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> >
> >
> >
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> >
> > ---
> >
> > Mark Little
> >
> > mlittle@xxxxxxxxxx
> >
> >
> >
> > JBoss, by Red Hat
> >
> > Registered Address: Red Hat Ltd, 6700 Cork Airport Business Park, Kinsale
> > Road, Co. Cork.
> > Registered in the Companies Registration Office, Parnell House, 14 Parnell
> > Square, Dublin 1, Ireland, No.304873
> > Directors:Michael Cunningham (USA), Vicky Wiseman (USA), Michael O'Neill,
> > Keith Phelan, Matt Parson (USA)
> >
> >
> >
> >
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