Re: [jakarta.ee-community] About Profiles

[Adam Bien <abien@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

As you already mentioned. Our goal should be to have a few profiles as possible, only motivated by real world use cases. 

> On 17. May 2018, at 15:28, Mark Little <mlittle@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> 
> Dominik, you may feel that my examples are not valid but that doesn't
> mean they are actually invalid :) The discussions around profiles date
> back many years in the JCP and unfortunately I'm not able to check at
> the moment as to whether those were public. But suffice it to say we
> (Red Hat), IBM, Oracle and many others here, including users, provided
> examples of why profiles were a good thing and necessary based on many
> many years of real world use cases and thousands of customers asking
> for precisely that sort of thing. As I said earlier though, you are
> not alone in only wanting to have the full profile and that's fine
> too. Maybe others, such as Tomitribe who only provide the WebProfile,
> will chime in with some examples of their own but I can tell you that
> since Red Hat implemented both the WebProfile and full profile in our
> community and product app servers we have seen significant adoption of
> both and those developers make the choice based on some of the reasons
> I gave and they clearly understand why and believe their actions are
> valid too :)
> 
> Mark.
> 
> On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 1:59 PM, Dominik Hufnagel
> <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> Well, there certainly are users which are not happy with just the full
>> profiles and I am sure there are reasons. I do not say there is no need for
>> more profiles, but until now I have not seen reasons for it, which justifies
>> it.
>> 
>> For me, your arguments do not justify the complexity for users having to
>> choose between profiles. If I start a project and having to make decisions
>> on what profile to use, how would that be less expensive than running a
>> cloud machine with 50MB more for years? Let’s take AWS for example, where a
>> block storage costs about 0.1-0.2$ per GB per Month.
>> 
>> Regarding boot times, may you/one can specify what fast means? I have a
>> wildfly app booting in < 10 seconds where a spring boot app I am currently
>> working on (with almost just REST interfaces) needs > 15 seconds to boot.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> If you think about the buzzword IoT, then clearly the full profile may not
>> suit. But I am not sure if this has to be covered under Jakarta EE.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I am with you in terms of complexity and portability. For small
>> applications, where mostly one war or app is deployed, it would be
>> beneficial to be able to configure the Application Server (DB, JMS-Queues,
>> …) with any mechanism from inside the war (let’s say a properties file or
>> something). I would love to see such mechanisms in Jakarta EE, but this is
>> not really related to profiles.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I also think it would be beneficial to have a legacy profile for the stuff
>> that is not anymore ‘state ot the art’, so that the main profile could be
>> more lean.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> To be clear: I have no final opinion about this topic yet. I just like to
>> see some valid arguments for having more profiles or for not have more
>> profiles. What I also did not see in this discussion so far, are examples
>> for profiles and how they fit together. This would help getting a clearer
>> image of the needs from those who argue for having more profiles.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Dominik
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Von: jakarta.ee-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:jakarta.ee-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] Im Auftrag von Mark Little
>> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 17. Mai 2018 13:47
>> 
>> 
>> An: Jakarta EE community discussions <jakarta.ee-community@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Betreff: Re: [jakarta.ee-community] About Profiles
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> This isn’t just about vendor choice. You are certainly not alone in being
>> happy with the full profile option. However, there are other classes of
>> users/developers that aren’t and these have existed since the dawn of J2EE.
>> For example, some people want to deploy their favour app server on to
>> constrained devices which may be running on the cloud where an additional
>> 50MB costs real money when run for hours or days or weeks or longer. Some
>> developers want to reduce the maintenance complexity or boot time of their
>> favourite app server by stripping out those capabilities they don’t want.
>> Now you could argue that these developers could just do this themselves
>> anyway, e.g., JBossAS has supported this kind of pruning from the start.
>> However, if you want portability and interoperability of your apps so you’re
>> not tied to a specific app server implementation/vendor, having standardised
>> profiles is the right approach.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Mark.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 16 May 2018, at 23:16, Dominik Hufnagel <mail@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> As a user of JavaEE, I do not get the idea behind having multiple profiles.
>> May someone can explain the benefits for users? If I can have a single
>> profile with all available features, I would take it and I do not bother
>> using a server which is 50MB larger of one with a „smaller“ profile. I can
>> understand that it could be harder for vendors to enter the market having to
>> provide the full profile. But for me, this would not be an argument for
>> using smaller profiles. I’d rather take a server from a vendor which offers
>> me the full profile.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> If I would use the MicroProfile and want to have JPA, do I have to add
>> external dependencies? I really like some of the new APIs of the
>> MicroProfile and would be happy to see them coming to JakartaEE.
>> 
>> Dominik
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Von: jakarta.ee-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:jakarta.ee-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] Im Auftrag von Mark Little
>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 16. Mai 2018 11:42
>> An: Jakarta EE community discussions <jakarta.ee-community@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Betreff: Re: [jakarta.ee-community] About Profiles
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Hopefully others have responded already but … it’s for both: quick summary …
>> vendors so they can ensure conformance and users so they can ensure
>> portability and interoperability of their apps.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Speaking with my MicroProfile hat on, I for one would not want to trade the
>> current MicroProfile for a full Jakarta EE profile and neither would our
>> users.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Mark.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 7 May 2018, at 17:33, arjan tijms <arjan.tijms@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> So then the first question is perhaps; who wants profiles and benefits from
>> it? Is a profile intended for vendors or for users?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ---
>> 
>> Mark Little
>> 
>> mlittle@xxxxxxxxxx
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> JBoss, by Red Hat
>> 
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>> 
>> 
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>> 
>> 
>> ---
>> 
>> Mark Little
>> 
>> mlittle@xxxxxxxxxx
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> JBoss, by Red Hat
>> 
>> Registered Address: Red Hat Ltd, 6700 Cork Airport Business Park, Kinsale
>> Road, Co. Cork.
>> Registered in the Companies Registration Office, Parnell House, 14 Parnell
>> Square, Dublin 1, Ireland, No.304873
>> Directors:Michael Cunningham (USA), Vicky Wiseman (USA), Michael O'Neill,
>> Keith Phelan, Matt Parson (USA)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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