Re: [ide-dev] what about doing less?
My point is that will not work. The user reaction is not going to be
positive. A common description of Eclipse is already "some assembly
required" while other IDEs work out of the box. Turning "some assembly" into
"a lot of assembly" isn't going to improve user perception of Eclipse.
From: ide-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ide-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Fabian Steeg
Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 5:42 PM
To: Discussions about the IDE
Subject: Re: [ide-dev] what about doing less?
I also prefer a feature rich IDE, and I'm happy enough with some parts of
Eclipse to view the others as challenges on the way to the ultimate IDE. So
personally, I totally agree. It just bugs me that people seem to hate
Eclipse for what it's trying to be, instead of loving it for what it is and
looking forward to what it might become. The things that really shine and
attract users and contributors seem to get missed. The platform nature,
customizability, and plugin ecosystem are some of these things, so maybe
it's better to actively get users into that, instead of trying to hide it.
On 26.10.2013, at 00:38, Konstantin Komissarchik
>> So as another crazy idea, we could make the Platform (plus
> client) the
>> default download, and focus on making it easy to build the IDE that's
> right for you
>> from there (one part of that could be the changes to the Marketplace
> mentioned by
>> Marcel in the other thread).
> This sort of approach is something that a few power users would
> appreciate, but a typical user is just not interested in finely tuning
> their IDE composition. I have seen too many frustrated questions from
> users regarding why their Eclipse doesn't understand XML files (for
> instance), when Netbeans has no issue with them. No amount of
> improvements to Eclipse Marketplace is going to make users feel good
> about having to manually pick the technologies that they want to use and
then hope that they install without issues.
> Rather than trying to ignore performance issues by including less, a
> good item for the IDE working group to tackle is interop between
> projects when many projects are installed concurrently. There are
> performance issues that are not evident when only a few plugins are
> installed. There are UI pollution issues. Like, why do we need a dozen
> views to show external resources, like app servers, databases, source
> repos, task repos, etc. when other IDEs can get away with a single view.
> - Konstantin
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ide-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ide-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Fabian Steeg
> Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 3:23 PM
> To: Discussions about the IDE
> Subject: Re: [ide-dev] what about doing less?
> I really like the general idea of doing less. I think a lot of grief
> around Eclipse today is rooted in one of its actual strengths: a
> large, open ecosystem.
> Some like using advanced tools, and gladly work around their bugs and
> limitations, but others prefer to stick to a rock solid text editor
> and the terminal instead of using a feature rich editor that hangs
> while you're typing. So why not give people that option?
> On my current machine, the latest stable Platform build (4.4M2) starts
> up in
> 5 seconds something. That's not quite the 2 seconds mentioned by
> Martin yet, but it's pretty close, and it's a start. As an easily
> achievable goal, we could avoid adding more to that than really
> required by a given user. And this is not just about startup time, but
> overall user experience, like tools running background tasks etc.
> So as another crazy idea, we could make the Platform (plus Marketplace
> client) the default download, and focus on making it easy to build the
> IDE that's right for you from there (one part of that could be the
> changes to the Marketplace mentioned by Marcel in the other thread).
> The open platform and focussed tools that made Eclipse great 10 years
> ago are still here, but maybe seeing them has become more difficult
> over the years, and is almost impossible for new and casual users today.
> On 24.10.2013, at 08:57, Max Rydahl Andersen <manderse@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 11:20:00AM +0200, Mickael Istria wrote:
>>> On 10/23/2013 09:38 AM, Max Rydahl Andersen wrote:
>>>> Dart editor "solves" it by removing anything but Dart required
>>> FWIW, It's already what Tycho does with tycho-surefire-plugin by
> it generates the minimal application for a test to run. So we don't
> need anything new to have something similar working.
>> Not following why that is relevant ?
>> Tycho's minimal application is rarely actually usable by users
>> because it doesn't take into account add-ons that aren't related to
>> your specific
>>>> I think for this specific issue (performance) putting together
> plan/resources to revive or reimplement focus on performance would
> help alot.
>>> Performance tests by themselves are generally a bit tricky to
> but coupling them with a profiler (yourkit-maven-plugin) could make
> them much more relevant.
>> Eclipse already have or at least had plenty of performance tests
> junit output usecase specific performance numbers instead of more
> generic profiler output.
>> There were tests for "opening workspace", "load of eclipse", import
>> of project etc. which were then tracked to not have to big of a %
> over time.
>> Not saying having easy access to profiler data but doing it
>> generically will probably not solve end-user problem faster IMO.
>>> Mickael Istria
>>> Eclipse developer at JBoss, by Red Hat <http://www.jboss.org/tools>
>>> My blog <http://mickaelistria.wordpress.com> - My Tweets
>>> ide-dev mailing list
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