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Re: [ee4j-community] Community Control was Jakarta EE logo selection

Hi Ondrej,

I believe you're missing Markus' point completely.
It's not that any person could go all the way up to being a committee member without paying one cent.

The point he's trying to make is that the power of the average individual in the community is pretty much nil. This is a matter of power being completely skewed towards the paying members, where they get one seat each just for paying, while thousands of individuals, together, get a single seat (maybe two, or three at best).

That means that, while I would need to work my *** off, and greatly contribute to the Jakarta EE project for years, and then become recognized enough to win a vote for a single seat in a specific committee, I could just as well gain a single seat in every single committee by paying a fee.

Yes, it's not as simple as just paying the fees (you need to have a certain amount of employees/members in a group that are dedicated committers), but that actually just widens the breach, as you not only need to pay the fee, you have to sustain a handful of committers.



I'm not going to ask for a direct democracy, that's just insane. I'm ok with weighted votes. But the disparity in the current weights makes the belief of the general community having any power an utter fallacy.

Yes, we'll have full control over the direction of any sub-project we're directly involved with. That's not a lie.
But you seem to be ignoring the fact those projects cannot be considered part of Jakarta EE, or their processes be considered to follow Jakarta specs, or their inclusion be guaranteed into the umbrella project, without approval from the WGs, where we won't have any power at all.

Regards,
Mariano Amar

Mariano Amar

Senior Consultant

email/hangouts:Âmariano.amar@xxxxxxxxxx
skype:Âmarianoamar

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On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 3:13 PM, Ondrej MihÃlyi <ondrej.mihalyi@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Hi Markus,


Sometimes it's really difficult to understand you. Steve described that you don't have to pay anything to become a committer and subsequently to become a Jakarta EE committee member. I believe this answers your original concern.


There's no pay-to-play for community committers. Pay-to-play principle only applies to organizations that want to influence Jakarta EE and I think it's fair because organizations usually have money and profit from Jakarta EE in some way unlike independent community contributors.


Cheers,

Ondrej MihÃlyi

Senior Payara Service Engineer
Payara Server âÂRobust. Reliable. Supported.
E: ondrej.mihalyi@xxxxxxxxxxx | T: +1 415 523 0175 | M: +421 902 079 891

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Registered in England and Wales: 09998946 | www.payara.fish | info@xxxxxxxxxxx |
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From: ee4j-community-bounces@eclipse.org <ee4j-community-bounces@eclipse.org> on behalf of Markus KARG <markus@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: 27 March 2018 20:00:18

To: 'EE4J community discussions'
Subject: Re: [ee4j-community] Community Control was Jakarta EE logo selection
Â

Steve,

Â

fair enough, but it seems you misunderstood my initial claim: I did never say that one has to pay to contribute / commit, but that there is pay-to-play in the foundation's committees.

Â

Anyways, I think everybody understood our different visions.

Â

-Markus

Â

Â

From: ee4j-community-bounces@eclipse.org [mailto:ee4j-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Steve Millidge (Payara)
Sent: Dienstag, 27. MÃrz 2018 19:39
To: EE4J community discussions
Subject: Re: [ee4j-community] Community Control was Jakarta EE logo selection

Â

I am simply trying to provide facts for other readers on the list that it is simply not true that you have to pay fees to contribute or become a member of a committee or even the board of the Eclipse Foundation.

Â

From: ee4j-community-bounces@eclipse.org <ee4j-community-bounces@eclipse.org> On Behalf Of Markus KARG
Sent: 27 March 2018 18:15
To: 'EE4J community discussions' <ee4j-community@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [ee4j-community] Community Control was Jakarta EE logo selection

Â

Steve,

Â

your long copy of the well-known facts simply reads like pure sarcasm from the view of the average individual contributor, and particular to me (as the addressee of your plea) as a committer to many open source projects since decades. You're just delivering excuses for the de-facto pay-to-play model of the EF, with a smug undertone that one may do all the work for free if not willing to pay the fees for having a seat in the "reserved-for-paying-members" committees. Any fee larger than a few bucks clearly is ruling out individuals (even committer members). My employer is tiny and does not benefit from EE4J or any other EF project at all. He will never pay any fees just for my personal interest in the Eclipse Foundation's several committees (like the EE4J spec committee in particular). Same for many other contributors / committers. And no, I do not see any proof that the majority does work for huge companies as you assume. Payara and Tomitribe make money with EE4J. Contributors typically do not.

Â

-Markus

Â

From: ee4j-community-bounces@eclipse.org [mailto:ee4j-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Steve Millidge (Payara)
Sent: Dienstag, 27. MÃrz 2018 10:51
To: EE4J community discussions
Subject: Re: [ee4j-community] Community Control was Jakarta EE logo selection

Â

Markus,

Â

An individual can contribute freely through the EE4J projects, they can raise issues, discuss on mailing lists, create PRs and contribute code. The projects are self governing and under the control of the group of committers that make up the project. Therefore if an individual wants to be involved in the technical direction of JakartaEE this is the way to do it. There are no fees to do this.

Â

An individual can then be elected to be a committer on a project by the existing group of committers for the project under the governance rules of the specific EE4J project. This gives them write access to the repositories associated with that project including website, wiki and other documentation etc. There are no fees to do this.

Â

An individual once a committer can become a committer member which is a formal individual membership of the Eclipse Foundation by signing the Eclipse Membership agreement. There are no fees to do this.

Â

Now if an individual wishes to get involved with the governance of the foundation itself rather than the projects. They are free to stand for elections for any committee of the Eclipse Foundation including a seat on the board. Board membership is a formal board seat with all the fiduciary and legal duties of a full Director of the foundation. There are no fees to do this.

Â

There are other classes of membership for corporations and these are all outlined here https://www.eclipse.org/org/documents/2018-01_Eclipse_MEMBERSHIP_AGMT.pdf with all their fee schedules, rights and responsibilities. Note there is not a âVendorsâ membership class. An individual can also lobby their employer to become a member of the Eclipse Foundation at one of these membership levels and pay some fees to the Eclipse Foundation and become their corporate representative.

Â

Payara and Tomitribe have joined the Eclipse Foundation as Strategic Members and have therefore paid these fees and acquired the responsibilities but we also gain the same rights as a big corporation paying much larger fees, this is laudable of the Eclipse Foundation.

Â

Payara are small and likely much smaller than the employers of many individual contributors. Many of those employers will use the outputs of the EE4J project and the open source âvendorsâ for free while creating paid for software for their customers which is their right under the licenses. However Open Source software is not free to create.

Â

Mike and his team have a specific recruitment drive to get corporations who are large users of what will be JakartaEE technology to become members and contribute both money and time. Please encourage your employer to do the same.

Â

Steve

Â

From: ee4j-community-bounces@eclipse.org <ee4j-community-bounces@eclipse.org> On Behalf Of Markus KARG
Sent: 26 March 2018 21:55
To: 'EE4J community discussions' <ee4j-community@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [ee4j-community] Community Control was Jakarta EE logo selection

Â

Ivar,

Â

you misunderstood me.

Â

1. Individual contributors CANNOT become members FOR FREE. Only COMMITTERs can become members FOR FREE. Not every contributor is a committer, even if his input is very valueable for both, the projects and the EF as a whole. Only CODE-contributors can become commiters, but input is not always code. If I wouldn't be a JAX-RS committer, I wouldn't have a vote without payment, independent of my knowledge and history in Java EE.

Â

2. AFAIK all commiters will share ONE seat, but I might be wrong here. Will the committers really have the same amount of seats as the paying vendors?

Â

BTW, I am already a committer member. Seems the PMC has no list of these?

Â

-Markus

Â

From: ee4j-community-bounces@eclipse.org [mailto:ee4j-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ivar Grimstad
Sent: Montag, 26. MÃrz 2018 21:26
To: EE4J community discussions
Subject: Re: [ee4j-community] Community Control was Jakarta EE logo selection

Â

Markus,

Â

I think you are wrong on a couple of points here.Â

Â

1. Individual contributors CAN become members. I, for example is an individual contributor and a Committer Member and it does not cost me a penny.

Â

2. As a Committer member, I can run for election for the Steering-, Specification- and Marketing Committees of the Jakarta EE working group. Still without paying. And with the same rights as the paying Influencer- and Participant member companies. They also have to be elected.

Â

So, I encourage you to become a committer member (two docs to sign). It does not cost you anything other than the time you're already spending.

Â

Ivar

Â

On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 7:25 PM Markus KARG <markus@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Steve,

Â

you miss the point that individual contributos cannot become members, and that committer members do not have the same powers than paying members have. So what you actually express is simply a commitment to the pay-to-play rules of the EF, which is exactly what I dislike most with the EF. For me, the powers in the EF should get discoupled from the payments. In fact I am willing to donate money to the EF, but I am not willing to spend thousands of dollars just to gain the same rights.

Â

-Markus

Â

From: ee4j-community-bounces@eclipse.org [mailto:ee4j-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Steve Millidge (Payara)
Sent: Montag, 26. MÃrz 2018 12:40
To: EE4J community discussions
Subject: Re: [ee4j-community] Community Control was Jakarta EE logo selection

Â

âThe Communityâ is a broad constituency and I donât think any of us would claim to speak for the whole of the community.

Â

Saying that I feel I have to speak up for the Eclipse Foundation here.

Â

The Eclipse Foundation is a small approx. $6M annual budget https://www.eclipse.org/org/foundation/reports/annual_report.php , not for profit, member supported organisation. There are many classes of membership open to both corporations, not for profits; vendors; end-users and individuals. The smallest fees for small companies is $1,500 per year to be a Solutions Member and $25,000 to be a Strategic Member with the same rights and representation as larger members. While these fees are not likely affordable for an individual, individual committers are still represented on the board and on the committees of the working group through committer elections. The Foundationâs governance is open https://www.eclipse.org/org/documents/ and ran by members in accordance with its constitution. The membership fees drive the work of the Foundation.

Â

Therefore if members of the community wish to make the rules and have control over the Eclipse Foundation and over JakartaEE the community is free to join the Eclipse Foundation, the JakartaEE WG and/or contribute to EE4J projects. I would encourage all out there that care passionately about Jakarta EE to get involved individually if you can. Alternatively if your employer is heavily dependent on JakartaEE technologies and wants control or influence over the Eclipse Foundation ask them to become members and participate.

Â

Saying all that EE4J projects are governed by the Eclipse Development Process https://www.eclipse.org/projects/dev_process/development_process.php through open source rules of engagement and there are no fees to join the individual projects, contribute, become a committer and drive the overall technical direction through contributions.

Â

Â

Steve

Â

From: ee4j-community-bounces@eclipse.org <ee4j-community-bounces@eclipse.org> On Behalf Of Markus KARG
Sent: 24 March 2018 07:24
To: 'EE4J community discussions' <ee4j-community@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [ee4j-community] Jakarta EE logo selection process - next steps

Â

Mike,

Â

thanks for clarification.

Â

I think we all would be happy if simply you could confirm that the marketing team did not do any kind of "preselection" by other criteria than just *legal* issues. In particular, they did not rule out logos due to personal taste, style, or design choice. Right?

Â

What the community expects is to have control over Jakarta EE (in the sense of making the rules for the EF, not the EF making the rules for the community). This includes that the EF asks the community *before* the EF acts. And with "community" I do not mean "only paying vendors" but also the majority of committers (even non-member committers).

Â

-Markus

Â

Â

From: ee4j-community-bounces@eclipse.org [mailto:ee4j-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mike Milinkovich
Sent: Freitag, 23. MÃrz 2018 22:31
To:
ee4j-community@xxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ee4j-community] Jakarta EE logo selection process - next steps

Â

On 2018-03-23 4:27 PM, Jason Greene wrote:

I read that differently. My interpretation is: They just eliminated candidates that failed to meet the design criteria, which did include a basic legal component. The next step is a more thorough legal analysis as well as a brand review from the foundationâs marketing team. From that process they will pick the strongest contenders. Both of these functions are pretty standard (Also really important for major industry marks) and based on expertise & analysis, and while we all have some biases, I seriously doubt this is driven by simple personal preferences.


This is correct. We removed the ones that did not meet the design criteria as stated in writing. This included removing the ones that we knew had legal issues. Now we are going to do more reviews, including deeper legal ones.

The community will have an opportunity to select from a number of options.

Â

Is the concern more that there will be too few options and you guys might not like the Âoptions, or is it that there is some nefarious purpose? If itâs the latter what would they have to gain?


On Mar 23, 2018, at 2:21 PM, Richard Monson-Haefel <rmonson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Right. Some were removed for legal reasons but the rest was a subjective decision by the marketing team.

Â

On Fri, Mar 23, 2018 at 2:17 PM, Markus KARG <markus@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

I understood the original mail in a way that from all submissions the EF
removed everything but left over only four due to a pre-selection by their
*marketing* team (not *legal* team).

-Markus


-----Original Message-----
From: ee4j-community-bounces@eclipse.org
[mailto:ee4j-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Heiko W. Rupp
Sent: Freitag, 23. MÃrz 2018 20:07
To: EE4J community discussions
Subject: Re: [ee4j-community] Jakarta EE logo selection process - next steps

On 23 Mar 2018, at 18:35, Markus KARG wrote:

> I second that. The EF should simply remove those logos which are
> legally problematic, and then let the community vote for their
> favorite. This is a community project, and

Isn't that what
| > *Â ÂWe will hold a community vote to determine which of these
| > final candidate logos should be the chosen logo.

says?

I understand Paul that the EF needs to (to quote you) "remove those logos
which are legally problematic", which is done by the marketing team, as they
know this process of removal best.

But then I may be wrong.
 ÂHeiko

Â

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