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Re: [ee4j-community] Community Control was Jakarta EE logo selection



On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 6:57 PM Markus KARG <markus@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Ivar,

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thank you for sharing your opinion.

Â

Regarding (1) this is interesting. So a committer is not a committer in the git sense (as what is in git is by definition code), but something different. Ok, understood.

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Regarding (2) that would effectively mean that every committer member has one vote in these committees, so if we are 1.000 committer members, we have 1.000 votes?


No, the committer members elect a representative. Just as a company elect, or appoint, a representative regardless of the size of the company.
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-Markus

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From: ee4j-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ee4j-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ivar Grimstad
Sent: Dienstag, 27. MÃrz 2018 07:36


To: EE4J community discussions
Subject: Re: [ee4j-community] Community Control was Jakarta EE logo selection

Â

Hi Markus,

Â

1. I don't think that there is stated anywhere that a committer must commit code. I don't even think you need to have any github commits logged. The project itself suggest and vote for including a committer. Any form of contribution could be used as basis.

2. The composition of the committees has not been set yet as far as I know. I would think that a paying member company will have one seat (one vote) in each committee. Committer members will have AT LEAST one seat (one vote) in each committee. So, yes committer members will have at least the same number of seats as a paying member company.

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The PMC does not have a list of members as far as I know.Â

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Ivar

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On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 10:55 PM Markus KARG <markus@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Ivar,

Â

you misunderstood me.

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1. Individual contributors CANNOT become members FOR FREE. Only COMMITTERs can become members FOR FREE. Not every contributor is a committer, even if his input is very valueable for both, the projects and the EF as a whole. Only CODE-contributors can become commiters, but input is not always code. If I wouldn't be a JAX-RS committer, I wouldn't have a vote without payment, independent of my knowledge and history in Java EE.

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2. AFAIK all commiters will share ONE seat, but I might be wrong here. Will the committers really have the same amount of seats as the paying vendors?

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BTW, I am already a committer member. Seems the PMC has no list of these?

Â

-Markus

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From: ee4j-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ee4j-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ivar Grimstad
Sent: Montag, 26. MÃrz 2018 21:26


To: EE4J community discussions
Subject: Re: [ee4j-community] Community Control was Jakarta EE logo selection

Â

Markus,

Â

I think you are wrong on a couple of points here.Â

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1. Individual contributors CAN become members. I, for example is an individual contributor and a Committer Member and it does not cost me a penny.

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2. As a Committer member, I can run for election for the Steering-, Specification- and Marketing Committees of the Jakarta EE working group. Still without paying. And with the same rights as the paying Influencer- and Participant member companies. They also have to be elected.

Â

So, I encourage you to become a committer member (two docs to sign). It does not cost you anything other than the time you're already spending.

Â

Ivar

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On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 7:25 PM Markus KARG <markus@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Steve,

Â

you miss the point that individual contributos cannot become members, and that committer members do not have the same powers than paying members have. So what you actually express is simply a commitment to the pay-to-play rules of the EF, which is exactly what I dislike most with the EF. For me, the powers in the EF should get discoupled from the payments. In fact I am willing to donate money to the EF, but I am not willing to spend thousands of dollars just to gain the same rights.

Â

-Markus

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From: ee4j-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ee4j-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Steve Millidge (Payara)
Sent: Montag, 26. MÃrz 2018 12:40
To: EE4J community discussions
Subject: Re: [ee4j-community] Community Control was Jakarta EE logo selection

Â

âThe Communityâ is a broad constituency and I donât think any of us would claim to speak for the whole of the community.

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Saying that I feel I have to speak up for the Eclipse Foundation here.

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The Eclipse Foundation is a small approx. $6M annual budget https://www.eclipse.org/org/foundation/reports/annual_report.php , not for profit, member supported organisation. There are many classes of membership open to both corporations, not for profits; vendors; end-users and individuals. The smallest fees for small companies is $1,500 per year to be a Solutions Member and $25,000 to be a Strategic Member with the same rights and representation as larger members. While these fees are not likely affordable for an individual, individual committers are still represented on the board and on the committees of the working group through committer elections. The Foundationâs governance is open https://www.eclipse.org/org/documents/ and ran by members in accordance with its constitution. The membership fees drive the work of the Foundation.

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Therefore if members of the community wish to make the rules and have control over the Eclipse Foundation and over JakartaEE the community is free to join the Eclipse Foundation, the JakartaEE WG and/or contribute to EE4J projects. I would encourage all out there that care passionately about Jakarta EE to get involved individually if you can. Alternatively if your employer is heavily dependent on JakartaEE technologies and wants control or influence over the Eclipse Foundation ask them to become members and participate.

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Saying all that EE4J projects are governed by the Eclipse Development Process https://www.eclipse.org/projects/dev_process/development_process.php through open source rules of engagement and there are no fees to join the individual projects, contribute, become a committer and drive the overall technical direction through contributions.

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Â

Steve

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From: ee4j-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx <ee4j-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Markus KARG
Sent: 24 March 2018 07:24
To: 'EE4J community discussions' <ee4j-community@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [ee4j-community] Jakarta EE logo selection process - next steps

Â

Mike,

Â

thanks for clarification.

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I think we all would be happy if simply you could confirm that the marketing team did not do any kind of "preselection" by other criteria than just *legal* issues. In particular, they did not rule out logos due to personal taste, style, or design choice. Right?

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What the community expects is to have control over Jakarta EE (in the sense of making the rules for the EF, not the EF making the rules for the community). This includes that the EF asks the community *before* the EF acts. And with "community" I do not mean "only paying vendors" but also the majority of committers (even non-member committers).

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-Markus

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From: ee4j-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ee4j-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mike Milinkovich
Sent: Freitag, 23. MÃrz 2018 22:31
To:
ee4j-community@xxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ee4j-community] Jakarta EE logo selection process - next steps

Â

On 2018-03-23 4:27 PM, Jason Greene wrote:

I read that differently. My interpretation is: They just eliminated candidates that failed to meet the design criteria, which did include a basic legal component. The next step is a more thorough legal analysis as well as a brand review from the foundationâs marketing team. From that process they will pick the strongest contenders. Both of these functions are pretty standard (Also really important for major industry marks) and based on expertise & analysis, and while we all have some biases, I seriously doubt this is driven by simple personal preferences.


This is correct. We removed the ones that did not meet the design criteria as stated in writing. This included removing the ones that we knew had legal issues. Now we are going to do more reviews, including deeper legal ones.

The community will have an opportunity to select from a number of options.

Â

Is the concern more that there will be too few options and you guys might not like the Âoptions, or is it that there is some nefarious purpose? If itâs the latter what would they have to gain?


On Mar 23, 2018, at 2:21 PM, Richard Monson-Haefel <rmonson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Right. Some were removed for legal reasons but the rest was a subjective decision by the marketing team.

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On Fri, Mar 23, 2018 at 2:17 PM, Markus KARG <markus@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

I understood the original mail in a way that from all submissions the EF
removed everything but left over only four due to a pre-selection by their
*marketing* team (not *legal* team).

-Markus


-----Original Message-----
From: ee4j-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ee4j-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Heiko W. Rupp
Sent: Freitag, 23. MÃrz 2018 20:07
To: EE4J community discussions
Subject: Re: [ee4j-community] Jakarta EE logo selection process - next steps

On 23 Mar 2018, at 18:35, Markus KARG wrote:

> I second that. The EF should simply remove those logos which are
> legally problematic, and then let the community vote for their
> favorite. This is a community project, and

Isn't that what
| > *Â ÂWe will hold a community vote to determine which of these
| > final candidate logos should be the chosen logo.

says?

I understand Paul that the EF needs to (to quote you) "remove those logos
which are legally problematic", which is done by the marketing team, as they
know this process of removal best.

But then I may be wrong.
 ÂHeiko

Â

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