Re: [eclipse.org-architecture-council] Eclipse vs Vi vs Sublime

[Jay Jay Billings <jayjaybillings@xxxxxxxxx>]

On a more technical arc, I've used Sublime, Vi, tried to use Che and of course I use Eclipse. Sublime and Vi seem so small and lightweight, but they don't have all the tooling I need. Still, I can use them by doing

vi testFunc.f90

and I can hit some hotkeys for autocompletion if I'm lucky. My code is highlighted so I can figure out what is going on. Building is a short set of keystrokes more than Ctrl+B, but still easy enough.

What if I had an Eclipse IDE that was that easy to use? Suppose I download PTP so I can handle Fortran files (or whatever is appropriate), then I just go

eclipse testFunc.f90

All of a sudden, say a second or two, I see my code and I could start editing. At the very least I will stare at it and start thinking. Most likely I'm going to find a cup of coffee or check the clock for a bit before I start hacking, which gives a background thread pool time to do things like discover the .project file, load the rest of the workspace, start the tooling and boot up the rest of the plugins. On the look and feel side, hide everything. The project explorer and other views could all auto-hide, so when I boot up I see exactly what I want. The "Toolbar of Every Imaginable Button" could auto-hide too. Maybe the file menu stays and little symbols on the side show them what is hiding, but the point is their code.

If I just typed 

eclipse .

could the welcome page show me useful things like 

"Open a file..."

"Run build..."

if no previous state was saved?

This is a kind of Partial Eclipse (hehe, little astrophysics joke there...) that focuses squarely on development. It could be toggled by a setting or offered as a completely separate download, but either way it addresses the fundamental question of people flocking to Sublime and Vi: "Will you stop standing between my code and I please?" It's a coder and their code, not one cloud platform to rule them all and not a workbench that can sometimes take more time to get going than I actually need to fix the bug.

Just some thoughts I've had for the past year or so.

Jay

On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 1:01 PM, Doug Schaefer <cdtdoug@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 12:59 PM, Wayne Beaton <wayne@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

We refocused. EclipseCon 2016 had more tracks than previous years and the programme committee certainly pumped up the desktop IDE content. This is a trend that I believe we'll continue.

I'll admit that there are subtleties in marketing that I don't understand. Harmful is in the eye of the beholder.

I believe it was Ed who pointed out that there are people in the community, on the newcomers list, who were confused about the messaging, about whether they should be abandoning the Eclipse IDE for Che. I think we concluded at the meeting that that was harmful.

 

Wayne

On 15/03/16 12:47 PM, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:

> Clearly, we have a perception problem.

 

Indeed

 

> I'm not convinced that the data supports your position: there was plenty

> of content at EclipseCon focused on the desktop IDE and related projects.

> Including two of my talks and at least one of the keynotes.

 

It’s not my position. I am conveying what I heard from the marketing department when I asked why Oracle wasn’t sponsoring this year’s EclipseCon. At dev level, I can tell you that many here have given up on submitting talk proposals because talks focused on traditional desktop IDE areas have not been getting accepted in the last few years.

 

> The "next generation" messaging is not coming from the Eclipse Foundation,

> it's coming from the Che project. I understand that this distinction may be lost

> on the greater community.

 

Are you saying that Eclipse Foundation is not able to exert influence over a member project to stop this harmful messaging?

Thanks,

 

- Konstantin

 

 

From: Wayne Beaton
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 9:35 AM
To: Konstantin Komissarchik; eclipse.org-architecture-council@xxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [eclipse.org-architecture-council] Next Meeting?

 

All of our efforts around FEEP are concerned with putting energy into the desktop IDE. Moving Mikael into the development position is also concerned exclusively with the desktop IDE. The Eclipse Foundation has never employed developers before. Our first development effort contracts and hire are exclusively concerned with addressing long standing issues with the desktop IDE. Clearly, we have a perception problem.

I'm not convinced that the data supports your position: there was plenty of content at EclipseCon focused on the desktop IDE and related projects. Including two of my talks and at least one of the keynotes.

The "next generation" messaging is not coming from the Eclipse Foundation, it's coming from the Che project. I understand that this distinction may be lost on the greater community.

Again, we have an opportunity with the press attention on Che to steal some of that attention for the desktop IDE. What are we going to do about it?

Wayne

On 15/03/16 12:24 PM, Konstantin Komissarchik wrote:

I see Che’s messaging as a serious issue. To a lay person, the fact that this message is coming from an Eclipse Foundation project lends it authority. Many wouldn’t understand that this is just another project trying something new rather than the official path forward endorsed by the community bringing them the current Eclipse IDE.

 

More broadly, it seems to me that Eclipse Foundation is focusing primarily on new initiatives outside of desktop IDE space these days. Oracle’s marketing department did not sponsor this past EclipseCon because the content has been less and less relevant to desktop IDE space, which is our main reason for involvement.

 

Thanks,

 

- Konstantin

 

 

From: Wayne Beaton
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 8:32 AM
To: eclipse.org-architecture-council@xxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [eclipse.org-architecture-council] Next Meeting?

 

Che is giving us some visibility. How do we leverage this? How do we encourage people who are looking at Che to maybe give the desktop IDE a fresh look?

Wayne

On 15/03/16 05:12 AM, Eike Stepper wrote:

Am 14.03.2016 um 21:03 schrieb Doug Schaefer:

Oh, and our discussion on Che and the impact calling it the "Next Generation Eclipse IDE" has on the existing IDE and community was really good too :).

So can we do something to make the situation better for us?

I googled https://www.google.de/search?q=%22Next+Generation+Eclipse+IDE%22&oq=%22Next+Generation+Eclipse+IDE%22&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8 and they seem to like this term a lot ;-(

Cheers
/Eike

----
http://www.esc-net.de
http://thegordian.blogspot.com
http://twitter.com/eikestepper


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Wayne Beaton
@waynebeaton
The Eclipse Foundation

 

 

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Wayne Beaton
@waynebeaton
The Eclipse Foundation

 

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Wayne Beaton
@waynebeaton
The Eclipse Foundation

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Jay Jay Billings

Oak Ridge National Laboratory

Twitter Handle: @jayjaybillings