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RE: [eclipse-incubator-e4-dev] Fw: Declarative UI roundup?

Hi Tom,

b) Ed is right I think we need a more strongly typed / constrainted
   description language.

Thru my experience with XAML implementation, UI needs a very special model:
"Dynamic Object model" with strongly typed / constrainted schema. 

>XAML    XUL     MXML    MySpecialML
>|        |        |          |
>             |
>             | Transform (XSLT, ....)
>             |
>           SwtXL => EMF-Modeled SWT-API
>             |
>       SWT-Application

It is a wonderful dream. It depends on what we plan to do in this
Declarative UI for e4. If it deals with only simple static UI aspect, I
should say it is possible. But even in this case, you have already a big
problem with layers. How about more advanced features like Data Binding, CSS
and advanced Style, layers, Dynamic UI, Resource management and View
management? I wonder when you dream could become true. XAML has more then
these features. 

I think Eclipse just starts on Declarative UI. It is the waste of time to
reinvent the wheel. If there is an open standard or de-facto standard, we
should consider using it first. 

>From technical point of view, XAML is a complete and mature technology, used
in WPF and Silverlight. For the user's perspective, using XAML provides the
direct UI interoperability with .NET and more .NET developers can easily
adopt e4. We got a Unified UI, it is my dream. 

It is true XAML is defined by Microsoft. You may have noticed, now Microsoft
is chancing his position and public image from closed software provider to
open solution provider, by publishing a lot of specifications including
XAML, source codes, sponsoring more and more open source projects in
sourceforge and CodePlex ( Eclipse SLDT is the
first one in eclipse.

Best regards
-----Original Message-----
From: eclipse-incubator-e4-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:eclipse-incubator-e4-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Tom
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2008 11:24 AM
To: E4 developer list
Subject: Re: [eclipse-incubator-e4-dev] Fw: Declarative UI roundup?

Ed and Angelo,

a) I'd like us to see the biggest spectrum of available technologies
b) Ed is right I think we need a more strongly typed / constrainted
   description language.

As I have understood TK-UI so far it uses XUL to described the UI so
Angelo has a constrainted description language it only misses an
Ecore-Description [1,2].

I don't want to sound like a lawyer but what is the license of XAML, is
it opensource at least it is controled by M$, right?

What I often thought about is that we could have a layered approach here:

XAML    XUL     MXML    MySpecialML
|        |        |          |
             | Transform (XSLT, ....)
           SwtXL => EMF-Modeled SWT-API

This is the concept I currently have in mind for my UFaceKit-Project the
only thing I replace there is SWT through UFaceKit and SwtXL through

I've already tested this approach in a project I had named EXSWT the
only thing missig there was the Ecore-Model for EXSWT [3].



Ed Merks schrieb:
> Angelo,
> I was trying to find an XML Schema for XAML.  Is there one?  DOM is very
> unconstrained so building a DOM that's well-formed XAML seems important...
> Are you aware of
> It's interesting to see some of the Oslo developments.  It makes you
> wonder if Microsoft will build a DSL for XAML. :-)
> XML continues to strike me as a poor man's excuse for human readable
> syntax that's primarily driven by a desire to avoid having to write
> lexers and parsers.  It's great for interchange, but not so great for
> humans.
> Cheers,
> Ed
> Angelo zerr wrote:
>> Hi Kevin,
>> The subject is very interesting but I believe that Eclipse E4 have
>> intention to use EMF.
>> I would like call about TK-UI for declarative UI but TK-UI use DOM and
>> it seems that people prefer EMF than DOM.
>> I would like just say too, that I'm refactoring TK-UI to use UFace 
>> <>(where I'm contributing) which
>> propose this project to Eclipse
>> I think that UFace is very interesting for declarative UI because :
>> * it provide universal API to render it to SWT, Swing, QT, GWT...
>> (UIElement )
>> * manage binding with JFace Databinding. So you can bind properties of
>> widget (visible, text...), layout properties (orientation, with...)
>>   with anything. Into TK-UI it's easy to bind DOM element, attributes
>> with tje UIElement. Each properties (ex : setVisible) notify listeners. 
>> * manage Databinding with UIForm. It's easy to manage master detail
>> and into TK-UI I'm using to manage Databinding Expression  Language
>> (like XAML binding epression).
>> Regards Angelo
>> 2008/11/5 Kevin McGuire <Kevin_McGuire@xxxxxxxxxx
>> <mailto:Kevin_McGuire@xxxxxxxxxx>>
>>     Thanks all who responded to my previous note.  As we did for the
>>     styling roundup, it'd be great if people could fill in a bit of
>>     information about a proposed technology as prep for us all for a
>>     call.
>>     At your earliest convenience, please take a moment to fill in an
>>     entry in the following table:
>>     You'll notice a striking resemblance to the styling one we did,
>>     about midway down
>>     The idea here is that providing the information shouldn't be
>>     laborious on the part of the presenter, but enough for everyone to
>>     get started investigating.  We'll then have a bakeoff call, post
>>     slides and notes back to the wiki.
>>     We should aim to have the call in a few weeks.
>>     Best Regards,
>>     Kevin
>>     ----- Forwarded by Kevin McGuire/Ottawa/IBM on 11/04/2008 06:16 PM
>>     -----
>>     *Kevin McGuire/Ottawa/IBM*
>>     10/14/2008 05:49 PM
>>     To
>>     	"E4 developer list"
>>     cc
>>     Subject
>>     	Declarative UI roundup?
>>     Hi gang,
>>     As you may recall, in August we had a Styling roundup to look at
>>     the different available skinning technologies.  While organizing
>>     it, we discussed also wanting to do one for declarative UIs.
>>     There was a lot of interest at the time, and there's been lots of
>>     discussion on this list lately about different declarative UI
>>     technologies/approaches.  I think the Styling one went well so I
>>     was wondering if folks wanted to do one for declarative UIs?
>>      See
>>     <> for an
>>     idea.
>>     This would involve some people volunteering to do a short
>>     presentation on a particular technology, either their own (e.g.
>>     XSWT) or one they are familiar with (e.g. XUL).  There'd be some
>>     prep in putting a small amount of information on the e4 wiki, then
>>     a call with presentations.  The idea is to have some decent
>>     content to discuss but not create a big presentation job for
>>     folks, so the emphasis would be on short presentations (and also
>>     out of the interest of keeping the call to say 1.5 hours which
>>     will be a challenge I think).
>>     The goals of the call would include but not be limited to:
>>     1) All getting on the "same page" with respect to the different
>>     technology choices available to us.
>>     2) Open discussion of pros/cons of different approaches.
>>     3) What problems we believe it will solve in the e4 context.
>>     4) Hopefully come away with a small number of "most promising"
>>     technologies which the community could focus on in e4.
>>     Any interest?  Note that this is community driven content, so
>>     "yes" would mean "yes I'll sign up to provide some content".
>>     Regards,
>>     Kevin
>>     _______________________________________________
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