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Re: [e4-dev] Sandbox for Eclipse proposal as E4 sub-project


Thank you for that feedback. I agree that we can still throw more over board. This was merely the first shot that we could achieve very easily.

Your minimal E4 solution certainly looks interesting and very lean. We discussed going that road, but since the goal was to actually get the IDE in shape, and allow users to extend it with existing solutions matching their needs as they are used to, taking the approach of the slightly heavier "core IDE" seemed better suited for the way ahead (and actually, Atom is a whopping 174MB download, and it's still perceived as light-weight, because of the UX it offers).

Actually, the question of what makes the IDE the IDE is a really good one. I think, definition of IDE aside, one important aspect from a product perspective is that we have a giant ecosystem out there, with an equally big (but struggling) user base. For all practical purposes, accomodating that ecosystem plays a (if not the) major role for me in being "an Eclipse IDE".


> I have downloaded your starting point from your github site and tried it.
> This editor is still 67MB and it takes about ten seconds to start. There
> is still a lot of stuff in your sandbox that the "new" editors don't have.
> For example the build in help should go (all other editors just open a
> webpage.)
> I think that the sandbox eclipse you are thinking of should throw even
> more away and start with only the basics. I have played with your concept
> a little bit and made an alternative sandbox here [1] (pure e4). This is a
> basic text editor with really the minimal eclipse components. It is 25 MB
> and it starts in 3 seconds. comparable to Code and Brackets.  (SublimeText
> is split second, unbelievable.)
> The question is: Who wants a basic text editor? Everybody wants an Eclipse
> that performs well, has a million features and a great UX. Take notepad++
> for example. I stopped using it because of its crappy extensions that
> often crash the product. This will also be the future of Brackets and Code
> unless they can find a way to maintain quality in their extensions??
> Maybe what should happen in this "sandbox eclipse" is an extension
> framework that provides much better guarantee against corruption of the
> UX. IntelliJ is a private club. Not everyone can get in. This leads to
> fewer extensions but higher quality. I mean core Eclipse rocks hard. It is
> the half-finished extensions that depresses people. Hopefully the new
> language server framework will live up to its promise and maybe there
> should be a Marketplace that only contains high quality plugins.
> Just some thoughts on your initiative.
> Cheers,
> Wim
> [1]
> On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 6:53 PM, Wim Jongman <wim.jongman@xxxxxxxxx
> <mailto:wim.jongman@xxxxxxxxx> > wrote:
> 	+1 Sounds great.
> 	Cheers,
> 	Wim
> 	On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 3:50 PM, Carsten Reckord <reckord@xxxxxxxx
> <mailto:reckord@xxxxxxxx> > wrote:
> 		Hi everyone,
> 		A few weeks back, Yatta launched a new experiment called
> "Sandbox for Eclipse" on GitHub[1]. We would like to contribute this
> project to the Eclipse Foundation and continue it there. We've discussed
> the project from early on with Lars. He suggested to make it a part of the
> e4 project, since it mostly touches on core Eclipse IDE aspects, and the
> incubator would give us the necessary flexibility for its further
> development.
> 		You can read more about the idea behind Sandbox for Eclipse at
> [2]. Essentially, we stripped down the Eclipse IDE to the barest minimal
> text editor, with the goal to build a lean code editor product from the
> ground up, focusing strongly on good UX and using (mostly) existing
> Eclipse technology. Our plan is to extend this Sandbox Eclipse step by
> step, driven by user feedback as well as analysis of popular light-weight
> editors like Atom, Notepad++ or vs.code.  Every change is to be driven by
> centering on the best possible user experience, and the intention of the
> project is to be able to roll out UX concepts and experiments and get
> feedback quickly.
> 		We expect a lot of the work on this project to come in the
> form of configuration, assembly, and of course product management. Code
> contributions will most likely be mostly for other Eclipse projects to
> fill in gaps, solve UX issues or improve integration.
> 		Of course we also want to ship a useful product/package to
> end-users. Right now, the - quite limited - text editor on GitHub is just
> a starting point that's mostly of interest for potential contributors, but
> over time, this should develop into an actual useful, lean editor in the
> vein of Atom or Notepad++ (actually, that's a quite crucial part in order
> to elicit good feedback from end-users).
> 		What do you think? Would the E4 incubator make a good home for
> this?
> 		Best,
> 		Carsten
> 		-
> 		[1]
> <>
> 		[2]
> eclipse-sandbox-15053bd01421
> <
> 15053bd01421>
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