e4-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:e4-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Sent: January-27-09 6:50 PM
Project developer mailing list
Subject: Re: [e4-dev] What *are* we
doing here??? <g>
great that you're thinking of this. Boris, McQ and I were discussing
something similar just the other day and to be honest we were really
With respect to
what you have below, this is the first we've used the word "Cloud". It's
pretty trendy today so maybe we should, not sure. I will note that at first
you're saying how we're extending the reach of the platform (good), the second
is a discussion about adoption of technologies. The problem with the
latter is that they are only as useful as the advantages they provide, so
saying we'll evolve the architecture and adopt technologies ... to what
My belief is that
we need to speak in terms of practical advantages so that a company will see
real benefit in e4, either in terms of reduced application development cost,
integration with a new breed of applications, or ability to reach new
audiences by targetting the web without having to completely abandon their
Eclipse investement. If they see benefit, they may be will be willing to
spend some developer resources contributing. Thus that value must be
Things we said
we'd do, and how I think they'll provide value:
0) Be more open as
an organization: That's important for Eclipse, and for people to know
they can get involved, but I think is only interesting with respect to
perceptions of the past which hopefully we're changing (hence #0).
Make it easier to write applications, make it easier to maintain applications:
This is a big win for anybody choosing Eclipse as an application
platform. In fact, arguably that's the whole point of an application
platform, that you have to write less stuff because of all the hardened
libraries at your disposal. Modelled UI, declarative UI all come into
2) Make it easier
to contribute to the platform: based on the notion that by cleaning up the
code base and picking known popular technologies like EMF, people can step in
to contribute where they could not before. Maybe more of an
organizational item, but also a benefit to consumers in the sense that they
believe that if they find a platform bug they can fix it, and if they find
missing features they can add them.
3) Enable new kinds
of UIs: This touches on both the "shape" of the application, so RCP on
steriods through modelled UI (which, by the way, I think we should start
calling "Flexible UI", because the model aspect is a technical choice only and
does not on its own ascribe goodness) [sorry Ed! :>]. It also touches
on the CSS work in making it easier to create new looks for your applications.
Presumably this has appeal to application developers because they can
modernize their apps, they are less restricted in look, they have more
opportunity for product branding, etc.
4) Something about
flexible resources.... sorry haven't been keeping up here <sheepish
5) Extending the
reach of the platform: web to desktop, desktop to web. Reuse through
desktop all come in. The carrot here is reduced development cost through
reuse, and parity of application look and feel for applications with both a
web and desktop component (increasingly popular).
I'm sure I've
missed some stuff.
E4 Project developer mailing list
Project developer mailing list <e4-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
[e4-dev] What *are* we doing here???
Yes, what I wrote was weak in that respect.
Take 2. <smack/>
Beyond the Enterprise, into
Tomorrow's applications will require integration of
hand-held devices, desktops, enterprise server applications, and applications
that are hosted "in the cloud" and are accessible from anywhere. E4
makes Eclipse the best platform for delivering integrated applications that
scale into all of these environments. With E4, you can now target tiny
devices, all the way up to cloud services like Amazon's EC2, all from a single
Take Eclipse's Architecture to the Next
In order to accomplish the above objective, Eclipse will
fully adopt technologies--such as Eclipse RAP--that have been in incubation
for some time, and evolve its core workbench architecture so that it can fully
participate in distributed and web 2.0-enabled
Boris Bokowski <Boris_Bokowski@xxxxxxxxxx>
What I meant was a position statement as defined by: http://www.ericsink.com/Positioning.html (and
probably many other marketing text books...)
"The basic idea of positioning is
that your product occupies a place in the mind of the people in your target
market. You are defined by their perceptions of you. ... ask in which market segment you want
to be known as number one. You want to be known as the best of your
breed, even if you need several qualifiers to constrain the scope of your
claim. Don't think about being fifth place in a large market.
Instead, be number one in a smaller market. ... Identify the three parts of a
position: superlative (why choose this product), label (what is this
product), and qualifiers (who should choose this product)."
something like: "Equinox is the number one componentization solution for Java
applications in the embedded, desktop, and server context." or "RCP is the
best platform for rich client applications that need native L&F across all
major desktop OSs" or "The Eclipse IDE is the most popular IDE for Java
Except we need something about e4...
wrote on 01/27/2009 04:36:12 PM:
> OK, cool.
> E4 will emphasize two
> 1) Beyond the Enterprise,
into the Cloud
> Eclipse has its roots as an
enterprise software framework, capably
> delivering software
from embedded devices through the server.
E4 will extend Eclipse with the capabilities needed to deliver
> applications that live in the network cloud, whether on
> like EC2 or on your own cluster.
> 2) Take Eclipse's Architecture to the Next
> In order to accomplish the above
objective, Eclipse will fully adopt
> technologies--such as
Eclipse RAP--that have been in incubation for
> some time, and
evolve its core workbench architecture so that it can
participate in distributed and web 2.0-enabled applications.
> 2009/1/27 Boris Bokowski
> Hi Dave,
> I agree with you that it is very important to think about e4
> marketing point of view. Especially since we have
explored a good
> number of areas and should be thinking about
what we want to deliver
> (both short term and long
> It's kind of funny that you are
mentioning marketing now. Just
> yesterday, I came across a
blog posting about "marketing for geeks"
> which I found
interesting as someone who had a small software
> company in
the past. After enjoying all the parallels with what I
experienced a couple of years ago, it occurred to me that many of
> the issues apply to the e4 project as well, in particular
Ideally, we'd come up with a position statement about e4, maybe
> something like your (1) below but shorter. Any
> About (2), I don't think the
phrase "architecture clean-up" is
> something you can use for
marketing purposes. :-P It's not about the
properties, it's about what you can do with it.
Dave Orme wrote on 01/27/2009 03:22:56 PM:
> > Awhile back we put together a few paragraphs describing
what E4 is
> > about from a (dirty) marketing point of
view. Beware: if you read
> > onward, you might need
to take a bath. ;-)
> > Seriously
though, what occurred to me last night is that E4 is
really about two themes:
> > 1)
Eclipse has always been about providing great infrastructure.
> > SWT gives us great infrastructure horizontally
> > system platforms. eSWT, eRCP,
however, broaden Eclipse vertically
> > down into the
embedded space. E4 is about moving Eclipse up in the
> vertical space so that it can also be a platform for cloud-based
> > After E4, we will cover
all major desktop and server operating
> > systems
horizontally and the embedded through cloud space
vertically. The enabling technologies here are Equinox, RAP, and
> > [[the second E4 theme]] which is:
> > 2) Code and architecture clean-up. Singletons are
> > evil, but especially so in a multi-user
environment like RAP.
> > Resources can be anywhere.
Declarative UIs are nice. Etc... I
won't re-hash any more of this here as we're all well-versed in it by
> > My
> > Does this sound like a
good way to describe and position E4?
> OK, maybe that's a silly question to ask a bunch of engineers.
> > But does anyone think I'm
missing anything important or glossing
> > over something
that I shouldn't be.
> > Regards,
> > e4-dev
> > e4-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/e4-dev