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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Eierlegende Wollmilchsau

I have and you¹ve mentioned that in the past. Consider it considered. I
know there¹s an issue and, for the record, I haven¹t said what we have now
is not crap (and it¹s not my button, BTW, there¹s small team working on
this). But I am still waiting for something better ;).

Also, I think it depends on what kind of user you are. There are people
who don¹t mind it at all and rather like it. Building and Launching are
what many users do quite regularly. Java users probably never build, but
they do launch. Eclipse developers probably have the least use for this
since they only have one launch configuration, though if you¹re running
JUnits...

I have on my todo list to create a video showing it in action. I use it
constantly and work with lots of different types of projects from Eclipse
to pure Java for cloud micro services to Maven builds (which turns out
kind of make sense as a launch, especially if you¹re building a Mojo) to
C/C++ for many platforms. It would be good to show it off and maybe it¹ll
spark in someone a way to make it not look like crap.

Thanks!
Doug.

On 2015-12-09, 4:21 PM, "cross-project-issues-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx on
behalf of Lars Vogel" <cross-project-issues-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx on
behalf of lars.vogel@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

>Doug, please take this as one data point from an IDE user.
>
>Personally as an Eclipse user I think the new icons do not look good
>and make the Eclipse UI look bad. The phrase you used "look like crap"
>seems fitting, if there is at least one other icon displayed with it.
>Also the colors selected for the buttons makes them "very outstanding"
>IMHO in a negative way. The item of my focus as an Eclipse user should
>not be your button.
>
>I agree the New ConnectionŠ item also looks bad.
>
>Best regards, Lars
>
>On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 7:16 PM, Doug Schaefer <dschaefer@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>> As I mentioned, I turn off almost all the other buttons on every
>> perspective. Only a few editor ones remain that have no equivalent in
>>the
>> menus or keyboard shortcuts. Doing that, it actually looks OK, since
>>there
>> are only 5 or 6 of the little ones left.
>>
>> And besides, I could make it the same 16 pixel size but it would look
>>like
>> crap, just like the New ConnectionŠ item in Michael¹s picture (which
>>comes
>> from RSE or TCF, BTW).
>>
>> The end objective is to present something pleasant to the user¹s eye
>>with
>> images that make sense to them. Consistency is a means to an end, it is
>>not
>> the end in itself. Happy users is the end :).
>>
>> And, again, if someone can propose something better, I¹d love to try it
>>out.
>> For me, the most important thing is the workflow that the launch bar
>>enables
>> almost eliminating the need for the user to go to the launch
>>configuration
>> dialog, and to tie what is being built with what, where, and how the
>>user
>> wants to launch it, something especially important to developers working
>> with remote devices and servers. I am less tied to how it looks, as
>>long as
>> it doesn¹t look like crap.
>>
>> Doug.
>>
>> From: <cross-project-issues-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf of Lars
>>Vogel
>> <lars.vogel@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Reply-To: Cross project issues <cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Date: Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 12:53 PM
>> To: Cross project issues <cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Eierlegende Wollmilchsau
>>
>> I agree, that the bug lauchbar icons looks displaced.
>>
>> Doug, IIRC you usually a argue for consistency in the IDE. IMHO these
>> lauchbar icons should use the same size as all the others, otherwise
>>they
>> are a UI breakage for the user.
>>
>> We in Platform plans to bring high resolution support for icons in the
>>Neon
>> release (IIRC Markus Keller works on this.
>>
>> Best regards, Lars
>>
>> Am 09.12.2015 5:30 nachm. schrieb "Ed Merks" <ed.merks@xxxxxxxxx>:
>>>
>>> Doug,
>>>
>>> Comments below.
>>>
>>> On 09/12/2015 4:58 PM, Doug Schaefer wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks Ed! (and Michael for the picture).
>>>
>>> It was kind of entertaining.  In any case, we generate this product
>>>along
>>> with the rest of the product catalog, so it will always be available
>>>for
>>> testing.
>>>
>>> This is awesome and I¹m glad we¹re finally talking about this. In
>>>fact, I
>>> think we also need to go beyond the contents of the simrel repo and
>>>also
>>> consider popular 3rd party plug-ins, Pydev and Nodeclipse come to
>>>mind. And
>>> Andmore which is coming in Neon will also make this much worse and I¹m
>>> planning on helping clean that up.
>>>
>>> Yes, unfortunately once it's installed, it's just all "Eclipse" to the
>>>end
>>> user, so if others mess things up, they mess it up for all of us...
>>>
>>>
>>> You bring up a great point about the Toolbar. It¹s the most obvious
>>>affect
>>> of the tragedy of the commons, and it¹s why I¹m having a personal war
>>> against it. Do these buttons really need to be in the face of the user
>>>all
>>> the time?
>>>
>>> I would say not, and certainly not in every perspective either.
>>>
>>> How often are any of these actually used versus the real estate they
>>>take
>>> up.
>>>
>>> Indeed.
>>>
>>> Wouldn¹t it look better if we had fewer toolbar buttons but make them a
>>> little bit larger to make them easier to understand for new users?
>>>
>>> I actually like them small.  But there's no accounting for personal
>>>taste.
>>> Of course there could be a preference for toolbar button size (like
>>>Windows
>>> has for the task icons, which I have set to small), but unless an army
>>>of
>>> graphic designers make nicer large icons, that will probably look
>>>crappy.
>>>
>>> How do we make this better?
>>>
>>> Get everyone to agree on the one way that's best. :-P   With EMF I took
>>> pains to ensure that it has no visible footprint when installed.   For
>>>Oomph
>>> we also tried to minimize visual footprint, so the toolbar buttons we
>>>really
>>> like (and that are super handy, if you're actually using Oomph) are not
>>> visible by default, but are easily made visible via a preference (and
>>>of
>>> course that preference can be recorded so I always see it and  you
>>>never
>>> do).
>>>
>>> While on the topic, one of the horrible things I always hit is those
>>> navigator toolbar buttons that I use a lot, but it navigates to a
>>>different
>>> editor, which has different toolbar contributions, so the navigator
>>>buttons
>>> move, and I have to hunt it down again, or hit the wrong button.  It's
>>>super
>>> frustrating.
>>>
>>>
>>> And yes, the Launch Bar. Lots of Eclipse veterans complain about how it
>>> doesn¹t fit in with the rest of the toolbar.
>>>
>>> It definitely doesn't fit in.  But I understand the design intent is
>>>good.
>>>
>>> But take a look at the New ConnectionŠ item and how it really doesn¹t
>>>fit
>>> in the 16 pixel height. It looks horrible.
>>>
>>> Where does it come from? My IDEs never have that, but of course I
>>>mostly
>>> use the committers package with some modeling tools installed.  But I
>>>didn't
>>> see it in JEE either.
>>>
>>> When you turn off most of the toolbar buttons like I always do in my
>>> workspaces, the Launch Bar looks kinda nice and it¹s really easy to
>>>swap
>>> launch configurations, modes and targets and hit the start button to
>>>kick
>>> off a launch. Now, clearly as this picture shows, it sticks out a bit
>>>too
>>> much. But I¹ve always said I am open to find a solution that makes
>>> everything look better.
>>>
>>> One of the fundamental issues is whether I need all these toolbars in
>>>all
>>> perspectives.   It would be nice if you could create a cool CDT
>>>perspective
>>> without all the other things you don't need/want showing up.
>>>
>>> Easier customization would help, but it would be annoying to have to
>>> repeat those customizations for each workspace each time...
>>>
>>>
>>> Doug
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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>
>
>
>-- 
>Eclipse Platform UI and e4 project co-lead
>CEO vogella GmbH
>
>Haindaalwisch 17a, 22395 Hamburg
>Amtsgericht Hamburg: HRB 127058
>Geschäftsführer: Lars Vogel, Jennifer Nerlich de Vogel
>USt-IdNr.: DE284122352
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