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Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Eierlegende Wollmilchsau

Doug, please take this as one data point from an IDE user.

Personally as an Eclipse user I think the new icons do not look good
and make the Eclipse UI look bad. The phrase you used "look like crap"
seems fitting, if there is at least one other icon displayed with it.
Also the colors selected for the buttons makes them "very outstanding"
IMHO in a negative way. The item of my focus as an Eclipse user should
not be your button.

I agree the New Connection… item also looks bad.

Best regards, Lars

On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 7:16 PM, Doug Schaefer <dschaefer@xxxxxxx> wrote:
> As I mentioned, I turn off almost all the other buttons on every
> perspective. Only a few editor ones remain that have no equivalent in the
> menus or keyboard shortcuts. Doing that, it actually looks OK, since there
> are only 5 or 6 of the little ones left.
> And besides, I could make it the same 16 pixel size but it would look like
> crap, just like the New Connection… item in Michael’s picture (which comes
> from RSE or TCF, BTW).
> The end objective is to present something pleasant to the user’s eye with
> images that make sense to them. Consistency is a means to an end, it is not
> the end in itself. Happy users is the end :).
> And, again, if someone can propose something better, I’d love to try it out.
> For me, the most important thing is the workflow that the launch bar enables
> almost eliminating the need for the user to go to the launch configuration
> dialog, and to tie what is being built with what, where, and how the user
> wants to launch it, something especially important to developers working
> with remote devices and servers. I am less tied to how it looks, as long as
> it doesn’t look like crap.
> Doug.
> From: <cross-project-issues-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf of Lars Vogel
> <lars.vogel@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Reply-To: Cross project issues <cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: Wednesday, December 9, 2015 at 12:53 PM
> To: Cross project issues <cross-project-issues-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: [cross-project-issues-dev] Eierlegende Wollmilchsau
> I agree, that the bug lauchbar icons looks displaced.
> Doug, IIRC you usually a argue for consistency in the IDE. IMHO these
> lauchbar icons should use the same size as all the others, otherwise they
> are a UI breakage for the user.
> We in Platform plans to bring high resolution support for icons in the Neon
> release (IIRC Markus Keller works on this.
> Best regards, Lars
> Am 09.12.2015 5:30 nachm. schrieb "Ed Merks" <ed.merks@xxxxxxxxx>:
>> Doug,
>> Comments below.
>> On 09/12/2015 4:58 PM, Doug Schaefer wrote:
>> Thanks Ed! (and Michael for the picture).
>> It was kind of entertaining.  In any case, we generate this product along
>> with the rest of the product catalog, so it will always be available for
>> testing.
>> This is awesome and I’m glad we’re finally talking about this. In fact, I
>> think we also need to go beyond the contents of the simrel repo and also
>> consider popular 3rd party plug-ins, Pydev and Nodeclipse come to mind. And
>> Andmore which is coming in Neon will also make this much worse and I’m
>> planning on helping clean that up.
>> Yes, unfortunately once it's installed, it's just all "Eclipse" to the end
>> user, so if others mess things up, they mess it up for all of us...
>> You bring up a great point about the Toolbar. It’s the most obvious affect
>> of the tragedy of the commons, and it’s why I’m having a personal war
>> against it. Do these buttons really need to be in the face of the user all
>> the time?
>> I would say not, and certainly not in every perspective either.
>> How often are any of these actually used versus the real estate they take
>> up.
>> Indeed.
>> Wouldn’t it look better if we had fewer toolbar buttons but make them a
>> little bit larger to make them easier to understand for new users?
>> I actually like them small.  But there's no accounting for personal taste.
>> Of course there could be a preference for toolbar button size (like Windows
>> has for the task icons, which I have set to small), but unless an army of
>> graphic designers make nicer large icons, that will probably look crappy.
>> How do we make this better?
>> Get everyone to agree on the one way that's best. :-P   With EMF I took
>> pains to ensure that it has no visible footprint when installed.   For Oomph
>> we also tried to minimize visual footprint, so the toolbar buttons we really
>> like (and that are super handy, if you're actually using Oomph) are not
>> visible by default, but are easily made visible via a preference (and of
>> course that preference can be recorded so I always see it and  you never
>> do).
>> While on the topic, one of the horrible things I always hit is those
>> navigator toolbar buttons that I use a lot, but it navigates to a different
>> editor, which has different toolbar contributions, so the navigator buttons
>> move, and I have to hunt it down again, or hit the wrong button.  It's super
>> frustrating.
>> And yes, the Launch Bar. Lots of Eclipse veterans complain about how it
>> doesn’t fit in with the rest of the toolbar.
>> It definitely doesn't fit in.  But I understand the design intent is good.
>> But take a look at the New Connection… item and how it really doesn’t fit
>> in the 16 pixel height. It looks horrible.
>> Where does it come from? My IDEs never have that, but of course I mostly
>> use the committers package with some modeling tools installed.  But I didn't
>> see it in JEE either.
>> When you turn off most of the toolbar buttons like I always do in my
>> workspaces, the Launch Bar looks kinda nice and it’s really easy to swap
>> launch configurations, modes and targets and hit the start button to kick
>> off a launch. Now, clearly as this picture shows, it sticks out a bit too
>> much. But I’ve always said I am open to find a solution that makes
>> everything look better.
>> One of the fundamental issues is whether I need all these toolbars in all
>> perspectives.   It would be nice if you could create a cool CDT perspective
>> without all the other things you don't need/want showing up.
>> Easier customization would help, but it would be annoying to have to
>> repeat those customizations for each workspace each time...
>> Doug
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