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Re: [dsdp-dd-dev] Re: [cdt-dev] Re: New Debug Model

Hi Ken,
I totally agree with everything you're saying, it's just a really tough challenge: to design a standard debug model implementation in components, such that they can be selectively replaced to provide custom functionality... a very worthy goal though.

Still what I'm struggling with right now is the question of "other tools" and interoperability between models. What are the specific use-cases for other tools accessing the debug model? And what features require debug models to collaborate with each other?


Ken Ryall wrote:

For now just a couple thoughts:

The new platform model is wonderfully flexible but a model for C/C++
debuggers needs to provide enough common structure to make it reusable
across back-ends. Otherwise there is not much to leverage and other tools
don't have a way to address debugger stuff. The more common elements we can
put into the model, the more we can collaborate.

A debug model for C/C++ should as much as possible allow the back-end to
provide as rich a debug experience as it can. That's not to say that the
model has to let every back-end interact exactly the way it wants to, some
glue and various adjustments will usually be necessary.

A debug model should address the most common debugger use cases and let
back-ends opt out and do their own thing when they do something wildly
different. But in those cases the benefits of the model should also provide
an incentive for people to adjust their debugger back-ends to better match
the model.

Looking forward to a more in-depth discussion later on.

Thanks - Ken

From: ext Pawel Piech <pawel.piech@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: Device Debugging developer discussions <dsdp-dd-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 17:03:29 -0700
To: "CDT General developers list." <cdt-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: Device Debugging developer discussions <dsdp-dd-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [dsdp-dd-dev] Re: [cdt-dev] Re: New Debug Model (was: Editor
technology subgroup)

As promised, I started on defining the requirements for an optimal debug
model design for embedded debugging.  I took kind of a fun approach to
the problem, so please let me know if you think it's confusing or


Pawel Piech wrote:
Hi All,
I'll start off by apologizing.  I've been meaning to edit the to start
collecting requirements, but it seems like such a daunting task that I
ended up putting it off week after week :-(  So rather than make up
more excuses I'll make sure that I get started on it today.  If anyone
already has a set of requirements written up, please feel free to post
them on the twiki page or mail them to the list, it'll make this
process a lot easier.

Separately, we have been working on a prototype that we will commit to
CVS shortly.  This is the same prototype that we talked about in the
February DSDP meeting, except we have rewritten it a couple of time
since to take advantage of standards that are in JDK 5.0 and in OSGI.
At this point, aside from javadocs and example code, the prototype
code is ready to commit, we're just waiting to get the required
signatures from within the company.  So rather than try to describe
what this thing is about, I'd rather wait another week or so and just
post the code for everyone to look at.


P.S. I just signed up for dsdp-dd-dev and cdt-dev... better late then

Oberhuber, Martin wrote:

while Doug Gaff is at the WR User Conference in Orlando,
let me go ahead and start the new thread :-)

Yes, Pawel P has made quite some progress on prototyping
against the Flexible Debug Model. Sine quite a bit of this
is based on former WR proprietary code, we'll need to wait
for IP clearance before we can actually make a contribution.

We hope this to happen anytime soon.

Martin Oberhuber - WindRiver, Austria
-----Original Message-----
From: dsdp-dd-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:dsdp-dd-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ewa Matejska
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 8:43 PM
To: CDT General developers list.; Device Debugging developer
Subject: RE: [cdt-dev] RE: [dsdp-dd-dev] Editor technology subgroup


I propose starting a new thread for future communications about the
Debug Model since there's a technology subgroup in the DSDP-DD.  I
like to leave this thread for Editor enhancement/ideas/requests
on embedded development.


-----Original Message-----
From: cdt-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:cdt-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Greg Watson
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 10:45 AM
To: CDT General developers list.
Subject: Re: [cdt-dev] RE: [dsdp-dd-dev] Editor technology subgroup

I got confused by all the Dougs. :-) I'd like to work with anyone
on  this!


On May 12, 2006, at 9:48 AM, Mikhail Khodjaiants wrote:

Doug S,

I sent my previous message before I saw yours. It is for Doug G

Mikhail K
----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Schaefer"
To: "CDT General developers list." <cdt-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 11:46 AM
Subject: RE: [cdt-dev] RE: [dsdp-dd-dev] Editor technology subgroup

Which Doug is everyone talking about :).

Since the Greg's note was sent to cdt-dev, I thought it was for
me. This
note sounds like it is for Doug G...

Doug Schaefer, QNX Software Systems
Eclipse CDT Project Lead, Tools PMC member

-----Original Message-----
From: cdt-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:cdt-dev-
bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Mikhail Khodjaiants
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 11:35 AM
To: CDT General developers list.
Subject: Re: [cdt-dev] RE: [dsdp-dd-dev] Editor technology subgroup


There was a special group formed among others at the last DSDP
meeting to
work on the design of the debug model. I volunteered to
participate, but I
haven't heard anything since. You mentioned that Pavel and
Ted are
some work in this direction. Is there any new information
available on what
they are doing?

Mikhail Khodjaiants
----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Watson"
To: "CDT General developers list." <cdt-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 11:11 AM
Subject: Re: [cdt-dev] RE: [dsdp-dd-dev] Editor technology subgroup


I wonder if we could be involved in the design of the next
debugger model? We're also looking at how to use the flexible
debug model
          for the parallel debugger. Since we reused
of CDT
debugger functionality in the parallel debugger  implementation,
it would
make sense to try and combine efforts here.


On May 12, 2006, at 8:19 AM, Doug Schaefer wrote:

BTW, Welcome Toni!

We've been in need of some focus on the CDT editor for a while
and  I
forward to your contributions.

Doug Schaefer, QNX Software Systems
Eclipse CDT Project Lead, Tools PMC member

-----Original Message-----
From: dsdp-dd-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:dsdp-dd-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Gaff, Doug
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 2:43 PM
To: Device Debugging developer discussions
Cc: Leherbauer, Anton; CDT General developers list.
Subject: RE: [dsdp-dd-dev] Editor technology subgroup

Hi folks,

I've asked Toni Leherbauer from my team to provide input
on the
Toni is currently looking at enhancing the CDT editor and is
some features on the CDT project plan.

Since there is interest in the editor in both the CDT and DD
we should keep both groups in the loop.  And of course, we
should have
one editor solution in the end (in CDT).  We started
this in
the DD project in Toronto simply as a way to capture
requirements as
they related to debugging.

Also, as I mentioned on the recent DD call, Ted and Pawel are
working on
a prototype for a generic debugger implementation of the
debug model interfaces (EDMI 3.2 for short).  The goal
is that this
prototype will form the basis of a next-generation debugger
model that
benefits folks using CDT and folks working directly with the
platform today.  We intend to get this committed in the
next few
so that the community can start discussing architecture,
interfaces, and

So regarding the editor, I see open questions around how we
disassembly, breakpoints, instruction pointers, etc. with a new
implementation.  I am also wondering how the editor will
deal with
multiple debug engines simultaneously (for example, how
to set the
default breakpoint scope).


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