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RE: [cdt-core-dev] Current Project Feature
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I agree with James, the Active Project isn't obvious enough right now.
I'll point out that there are other non-Debug things to which
the implicit active project is applicable:
- Some of the things under the Project menu:
- Build
- Properties
- Create Make Target...
- Build Make Target...
- the Build Console
- we could add a new Search Scope
Cheers,
Brent
James Langley wrote on 06/22/2004 12:16:16 PM:
> It's very useful to have the devils advocate position. More thoughts
> inserted below:
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Thomas Fletcher [mailto:ThomasF@xxxxxxx]
> >
> > But you still, at some point in time, had to define what the "active
> > project"
> > was ... which meant we are back to the "if it isn't set then prompt
> me".
>
> The advantage of setting the "active project" is that it stays the same
> no matter what your current focus is. I think that the current eclipse
> model is confusing because it can be hard to tell what it considers to
> be the active project. But this is more likely to be an issue to bring
> up with the core eclipse folks. I think that it would be possible to
> have the "active project" feature as an addition to the existing system
> - so that it is simply the default project that is used when creating a
> launch configuration.
>
> > > At earlier time the user manually says: "Here is my active project"
> > > using a context menu and that selection is stored in the workspace
> and
> > > it is shown by a decorator. Later the user doesn't have to select a
> > > project. Just say "Debug active project" from a main menu or
> toolbar.
> >
> > But the Debug and the Run buttons already work this way. In the
> current
> > use case the user has to set something up the first time ... the
> launch
> > configuration. The main launch configuration dialog can be bypassed
> by
> > using one of the "Debug As.../Run As..." mechanisms which can
> auto/pre-
> > fill
> > in and create a new launch configuration and then launch.
>
> Yes and no. The behaviour can be confusing because it's not at all
> clear to the user what the currently active project is. This can lead
> to problems where there is either no active project (causes Debug as and
> run as to fail), or the active project isn't appropriate for a given
> type of launch configuration. The buttons would best be labeled "Run
> most recent". The buttons are slightly strange from a UI point of view
> in that they don't have a corresponding menu item.
>
> > Later the user just has to click on the Debug/Run button to say "run
> > the last command" and that can't be easier ... it is a button. When
> they
> > want to change projects/active configurations they either do a new
> > "Debug As.../Run As..." if they haven't ever launched that project
> before
> > or they select the appropriate entry from the drop down menu.
>
> Once you know that this is the case it's a little simpler I agree. But
> when presented with the UI at the moment, it's very hard to figure out
> what's going on. The "Debug As.../Run As..." feature is context
> dependent and it's not always obvious what the active project is from
> eclipse's point of view.
>
> > I see very little difference between that behaviour and your
> > usecase/workflow
> > description (other than the label decorator ... which in the case of a
> > launch
> > configuration which needed to pull information from more than one
> project
> > is
> > of questionable general value).
> >
> > > As a feature it kind of hides the idea of a Lunch configuration. Let
> the
> > > user think in terms of "I debug the program that is generated by
> this
> > > project". It is really a usability simplification than a real
> feature.
> > > It is kind of handy for many embedded developers seeing Eclipse for
> a
> > > first time.
> >
> > I think that the launch configuration can be hidden from the user
> today
> > using
> > the "Debug As .../Run As ..." menu and it doesn't add more complexity
> and
> > is better integrated then coming up with a new "active project" which
> is
> > of
> > course going to now differ from what happens if you just click the
> debug
> > button or press F11 to re-debug the last launch configuration.
> >
> > My concern, similar to Doug's, is one of trying to simplify something
> in a
> > manner which is not cohesive with the current design. I would suggest
> > first
> > simplifying it using the existing facilities and then building on top
> of
> > those rather than going and building something which notherin else is
> > really
> > aware of.
> > Interesting points however, I do think that simplication is needed for
> > users
> > just starting with Eclipse.
> > Thomas
>
> I agree, but I think that it ought to be possible to come up with a
> solution that makes the process easier to use for first timers by
> augmenting the current system without working against any of the
> existing design.
>
> James
>
>
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Thomas Fletcher [mailto:ThomasF@xxxxxxx]
> > > Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 11:39 AM
> > > To: 'cdt-core-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx'
> > > Cc: Alexiev, Dobrin
> > > Subject: RE: [cdt-core-dev] Current Project Feature
> > >
> > > A couple of things come to mind about your usage case:
> > >
> > > 1) Isn't this actually the goal of the "Debug As ..." selection?
> > > If the current selection can't be derived to a project, then it
> > > should auto-prompt you for your selection. The CDT
> > > already provides
> > > a basic implementation, and if you have something more customized
> > > then you can add your own launcher to this.
> > >
> > > 2) In Eclipse 3.0 they have moved the Debug As .../Run As ...
> > > to the right click context menu for resources so that you won't
> > > need this anymore.
> > >
> > > Just wanted to make sure you already knew what facilities
> > > were available
> > > to you.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Thomas
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Recoskie, Chris [mailto:crecoskie@xxxxxx]
> > > > Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 11:05 AM
> > > > To: cdt-core-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > Cc: Alexiev, Dobrin
> > > > Subject: RE: [cdt-core-dev] Current Project Feature
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Actually, to clarify, yes, the user selects a menu/context
> > > > menu item to
> > > > set the active project explicitly to what they want.
> > > >
> > > > We are planning on using this to facilitate a way of
> > > auto-generating a
> > > > debug launch configuration so that our users can have one-click
> > > > debugging of their currently active project. Since our
> > > > current product
> > > > that we are working on is very simple and is only going to be
> > > > supporting
> > > > one hardware target (for now), this will work for us as all
> > > the debug
> > > > configuration parameters can be setup properly without user
> > > > intervention. If the user needs to tweak some things then they
> can
> > > > delve deeper via config dialogs, etc.
> > > >
> > > > Down the road we are going to have to deal with a more
> comprehensive
> > > > product environment where many different debuggable targets
> > > co-exist.
> > > > Hence we are very interested in 65471 and how we can apply
> > > that to our
> > > > concept of active project and one-click debug.
> > > >
> > > > Guess I better rush out and patent one-click debugging... hah,
> just
> > > > kidding!
> > > >
> > > > ___________________________________________
> > > >
> > > > Chris Recoskie
> > > > Software Designer
> > > > IDE Frameworks Group
> > > > Texas Instruments, Toronto
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: cdt-core-dev-admin@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:cdt-core-dev-
> > > > > admin@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of James Langley
> > > > > Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 10:47 AM
> > > > > To: cdt-core-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > Cc: Alexiev, Dobrin
> > > > > Subject: RE: [cdt-core-dev] Current Project Feature
> > > > >
> > > > > That certainly sounds interesting. I'd quite like to see
> > > > that taken a
> > > > > step further and have the user be able to specify what
> > > > they'd like the
> > > > > active project to be. At the moment I find I have to
> > > think too hard
> > > > > about what the active project is. On the other hand, as you
> point
> > > > out,
> > > > > it might be that this is too much of a shift from the current
> > > > behaviour
> > > > > and no one will want that changed. In which case what
> > > > you're working
> > > > on
> > > > > sounds like an interesting half-way house that at least makes it
> > > > clearer
> > > > > to the user what the active project is.
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Recoskie, Chris [mailto:crecoskie@xxxxxx]
> > > > > Sent: 21 June 2004 15:40
> > > > > To: cdt-core-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > Cc: Alexiev, Dobrin
> > > > > Subject: RE: [cdt-core-dev] Current Project Feature
> > > > >
> > > > > One of our folks at TI, Dobrin Alexiev, is working on
> > > exactly such a
> > > > > feature as we speak. Right now it just uses a simple
> > > text decorator
> > > > to
> > > > > display "[Active]" next to the active project.
> > > > >
> > > > > If other people think this would be of use we certainly
> > > > wouldn't mind
> > > > > contributing it. So far however, we are working on the
> assumption
> > > > that
> > > > > no one wanted the current launch configuration paradigm
> disturbed.
> > > > >
> > > > > ___________________________________________
> > > > >
> > > > > Chris Recoskie
> > > > > Software Designer
> > > > > IDE Frameworks Group
> > > > > Texas Instruments, Toronto
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: cdt-core-dev-admin@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:cdt-core-dev-
> > > > > > admin@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of James Langley
> > > > > > Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 6:59 AM
> > > > > > To: cdt-core-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > > Subject: [cdt-core-dev] Current Project Feature
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have a question/comment that I would welcome feedback
> > > > on. At the
> > > > > > moment, Eclipse/CDT seems to have a slightly strange
> > > > concept of what
> > > > > the
> > > > > > current project is. In that it depends on the
> > > currently selected
> > > > item
> > > > > > in the GUI. This leads to some confusing behaviour,
> > > > especially when
> > > > > > creating launch configurations, where the project that gets
> > > > populated
> > > > > > into the project field of most configurations depends
> > > on where the
> > > > > focus
> > > > > > was when the configuration was created. This means
> > > that sometimes
> > > > no
> > > > > > project is considered to be selected at all (for
> > > example when the
> > > > > focus
> > > > > > is in the console). As a personal preference I would
> > > > prefer to have
> > > > > the
> > > > > > concept of the current project as a user setting, in a
> > > similar way
> > > > to
> > > > > > Visual Studio for example. But this has some interesting
> > > > interaction
> > > > > > with the concept of having several launch configurations for
> the
> > > > same
> > > > > > project. It would also affect the behaviour of the Run
> toolbar
> > > > button
> > > > > > and menu item.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My question is I suppose twofold:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1) Does anyone else find this to be a nuisance?
> > > > > > 2) Does anyone else work around this and have a concept
> > > > of a current
> > > > > > project?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hopefully this will spark some interesting debate.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks in advance for any comments,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > James Langley
> > > > > > Senior Software Engineer
> > > > > > Altera European Technology Centre
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > cdt-core-dev mailing list
> > > > > > cdt-core-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > > http://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cdt-core-dev
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> > > >
> > >
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