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RE: [cdt-core-dev] Current Project Feature
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It's very useful to have the devils advocate position. More thoughts
inserted below:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Thomas Fletcher [mailto:ThomasF@xxxxxxx]
> Sent: 21 June 2004 19:07
> To: 'Alexiev, Dobrin'; cdt-core-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: [cdt-core-dev] Current Project Feature
>
> This is an interesting discussion, I've some comments below ... just
> don't think that I'm arguing for the sake of arguing, I'm just
interested
> in some thoughts behind the idea =;-)
>
> More below ...
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Alexiev, Dobrin [mailto:dalexiev@xxxxxx]
> > Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 12:19 PM
> > To: Thomas Fletcher; cdt-core-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: RE: [cdt-core-dev] Current Project Feature
> >
> > Thanks Thomas,
> > This is pretty much what I have in mind too.
> >
> > It really is the same as context menu on a project "Debug as..."
with
> > the exception that it can be done as a global command and no project
> > selection is required.
>
> But you still, at some point in time, had to define what the "active
> project"
> was ... which meant we are back to the "if it isn't set then prompt
me".
The advantage of setting the "active project" is that it stays the same
no matter what your current focus is. I think that the current eclipse
model is confusing because it can be hard to tell what it considers to
be the active project. But this is more likely to be an issue to bring
up with the core eclipse folks. I think that it would be possible to
have the "active project" feature as an addition to the existing system
- so that it is simply the default project that is used when creating a
launch configuration.
> > At earlier time the user manually says: "Here is my active project"
> > using a context menu and that selection is stored in the workspace
and
> > it is shown by a decorator. Later the user doesn't have to select a
> > project. Just say "Debug active project" from a main menu or
toolbar.
>
> But the Debug and the Run buttons already work this way. In the
current
> use case the user has to set something up the first time ... the
launch
> configuration. The main launch configuration dialog can be bypassed
by
> using one of the "Debug As.../Run As..." mechanisms which can
auto/pre-
> fill
> in and create a new launch configuration and then launch.
Yes and no. The behaviour can be confusing because it's not at all
clear to the user what the currently active project is. This can lead
to problems where there is either no active project (causes Debug as and
run as to fail), or the active project isn't appropriate for a given
type of launch configuration. The buttons would best be labeled "Run
most recent". The buttons are slightly strange from a UI point of view
in that they don't have a corresponding menu item.
> Later the user just has to click on the Debug/Run button to say "run
> the last command" and that can't be easier ... it is a button. When
they
> want to change projects/active configurations they either do a new
> "Debug As.../Run As..." if they haven't ever launched that project
before
> or they select the appropriate entry from the drop down menu.
Once you know that this is the case it's a little simpler I agree. But
when presented with the UI at the moment, it's very hard to figure out
what's going on. The "Debug As.../Run As..." feature is context
dependent and it's not always obvious what the active project is from
eclipse's point of view.
> I see very little difference between that behaviour and your
> usecase/workflow
> description (other than the label decorator ... which in the case of a
> launch
> configuration which needed to pull information from more than one
project
> is
> of questionable general value).
>
> > As a feature it kind of hides the idea of a Lunch configuration. Let
the
> > user think in terms of "I debug the program that is generated by
this
> > project". It is really a usability simplification than a real
feature.
> > It is kind of handy for many embedded developers seeing Eclipse for
a
> > first time.
>
> I think that the launch configuration can be hidden from the user
today
> using
> the "Debug As .../Run As ..." menu and it doesn't add more complexity
and
> is better integrated then coming up with a new "active project" which
is
> of
> course going to now differ from what happens if you just click the
debug
> button or press F11 to re-debug the last launch configuration.
>
> My concern, similar to Doug's, is one of trying to simplify something
in a
> manner which is not cohesive with the current design. I would suggest
> first
> simplifying it using the existing facilities and then building on top
of
> those rather than going and building something which notherin else is
> really
> aware of.
> Interesting points however, I do think that simplication is needed for
> users
> just starting with Eclipse.
> Thomas
I agree, but I think that it ought to be possible to come up with a
solution that makes the process easier to use for first timers by
augmenting the current system without working against any of the
existing design.
James
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Thomas Fletcher [mailto:ThomasF@xxxxxxx]
> > Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 11:39 AM
> > To: 'cdt-core-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx'
> > Cc: Alexiev, Dobrin
> > Subject: RE: [cdt-core-dev] Current Project Feature
> >
> > A couple of things come to mind about your usage case:
> >
> > 1) Isn't this actually the goal of the "Debug As ..." selection?
> > If the current selection can't be derived to a project, then it
> > should auto-prompt you for your selection. The CDT
> > already provides
> > a basic implementation, and if you have something more customized
> > then you can add your own launcher to this.
> >
> > 2) In Eclipse 3.0 they have moved the Debug As .../Run As ...
> > to the right click context menu for resources so that you won't
> > need this anymore.
> >
> > Just wanted to make sure you already knew what facilities
> > were available
> > to you.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Thomas
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Recoskie, Chris [mailto:crecoskie@xxxxxx]
> > > Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 11:05 AM
> > > To: cdt-core-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Cc: Alexiev, Dobrin
> > > Subject: RE: [cdt-core-dev] Current Project Feature
> > >
> > >
> > > Actually, to clarify, yes, the user selects a menu/context
> > > menu item to
> > > set the active project explicitly to what they want.
> > >
> > > We are planning on using this to facilitate a way of
> > auto-generating a
> > > debug launch configuration so that our users can have one-click
> > > debugging of their currently active project. Since our
> > > current product
> > > that we are working on is very simple and is only going to be
> > > supporting
> > > one hardware target (for now), this will work for us as all
> > the debug
> > > configuration parameters can be setup properly without user
> > > intervention. If the user needs to tweak some things then they
can
> > > delve deeper via config dialogs, etc.
> > >
> > > Down the road we are going to have to deal with a more
comprehensive
> > > product environment where many different debuggable targets
> > co-exist.
> > > Hence we are very interested in 65471 and how we can apply
> > that to our
> > > concept of active project and one-click debug.
> > >
> > > Guess I better rush out and patent one-click debugging... hah,
just
> > > kidding!
> > >
> > > ___________________________________________
> > >
> > > Chris Recoskie
> > > Software Designer
> > > IDE Frameworks Group
> > > Texas Instruments, Toronto
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: cdt-core-dev-admin@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:cdt-core-dev-
> > > > admin@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of James Langley
> > > > Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 10:47 AM
> > > > To: cdt-core-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > Cc: Alexiev, Dobrin
> > > > Subject: RE: [cdt-core-dev] Current Project Feature
> > > >
> > > > That certainly sounds interesting. I'd quite like to see
> > > that taken a
> > > > step further and have the user be able to specify what
> > > they'd like the
> > > > active project to be. At the moment I find I have to
> > think too hard
> > > > about what the active project is. On the other hand, as you
point
> > > out,
> > > > it might be that this is too much of a shift from the current
> > > behaviour
> > > > and no one will want that changed. In which case what
> > > you're working
> > > on
> > > > sounds like an interesting half-way house that at least makes it
> > > clearer
> > > > to the user what the active project is.
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Recoskie, Chris [mailto:crecoskie@xxxxxx]
> > > > Sent: 21 June 2004 15:40
> > > > To: cdt-core-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > Cc: Alexiev, Dobrin
> > > > Subject: RE: [cdt-core-dev] Current Project Feature
> > > >
> > > > One of our folks at TI, Dobrin Alexiev, is working on
> > exactly such a
> > > > feature as we speak. Right now it just uses a simple
> > text decorator
> > > to
> > > > display "[Active]" next to the active project.
> > > >
> > > > If other people think this would be of use we certainly
> > > wouldn't mind
> > > > contributing it. So far however, we are working on the
assumption
> > > that
> > > > no one wanted the current launch configuration paradigm
disturbed.
> > > >
> > > > ___________________________________________
> > > >
> > > > Chris Recoskie
> > > > Software Designer
> > > > IDE Frameworks Group
> > > > Texas Instruments, Toronto
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: cdt-core-dev-admin@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:cdt-core-dev-
> > > > > admin@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of James Langley
> > > > > Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 6:59 AM
> > > > > To: cdt-core-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > Subject: [cdt-core-dev] Current Project Feature
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > I have a question/comment that I would welcome feedback
> > > on. At the
> > > > > moment, Eclipse/CDT seems to have a slightly strange
> > > concept of what
> > > > the
> > > > > current project is. In that it depends on the
> > currently selected
> > > item
> > > > > in the GUI. This leads to some confusing behaviour,
> > > especially when
> > > > > creating launch configurations, where the project that gets
> > > populated
> > > > > into the project field of most configurations depends
> > on where the
> > > > focus
> > > > > was when the configuration was created. This means
> > that sometimes
> > > no
> > > > > project is considered to be selected at all (for
> > example when the
> > > > focus
> > > > > is in the console). As a personal preference I would
> > > prefer to have
> > > > the
> > > > > concept of the current project as a user setting, in a
> > similar way
> > > to
> > > > > Visual Studio for example. But this has some interesting
> > > interaction
> > > > > with the concept of having several launch configurations for
the
> > > same
> > > > > project. It would also affect the behaviour of the Run
toolbar
> > > button
> > > > > and menu item.
> > > > >
> > > > > My question is I suppose twofold:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1) Does anyone else find this to be a nuisance?
> > > > > 2) Does anyone else work around this and have a concept
> > > of a current
> > > > > project?
> > > > >
> > > > > Hopefully this will spark some interesting debate.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks in advance for any comments,
> > > > >
> > > > > James Langley
> > > > > Senior Software Engineer
> > > > > Altera European Technology Centre
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > cdt-core-dev mailing list
> > > > > cdt-core-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > http://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cdt-core-dev
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > cdt-core-dev mailing list
> > > > cdt-core-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > http://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cdt-core-dev
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > cdt-core-dev mailing list
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> > > > http://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cdt-core-dev
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > > http://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/cdt-core-dev
> > >
> >
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