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Re: [asciidoc-wg] AsciiDoc implementation for the Java/JVM ecosystem / project proposal

It’s almost certain, in my mind, that it will be rather difficult to standardize the conversion to PDF.  PDF is necessarily *not* semantic, but highly physical, and utterly subject to styling, etc.  Creating a standard that requires strict adherence will make it almost impossible for alternative implementations to reach conformance, more or less defeating the purpose of standardization in the first place.


Honestly, I’d almost rather not standardize *any* of the output formats (rendered formats), with the exception of DocBook.  (I have no love of DocBook, but its fully semantic and fairly rigidly standardized, so it has usefulness in terms of conformance testing.  It also can provide a gateway for implementations to get to other formats utilizing external tools, if they can’t do so natively.)


In particular, I expect different toolchains to possibly generate slightly different outputs even for HTML – perhaps adding for example additional CSS classes to facilitate richer styling than the common group agreed upon.  (Further, styling is quite varied, both with CSS, and with different syntax highlighters, etc.  For example, do you use pygments syntax, or highlight js?  Do you inline the CSS styles or style elements or emit that into a separate file, etc.)


What’s *far* more important (to me at least), is that we have an agreed upon standard for the grammar of AsciiDoc, as well as one common format (DocBook is what I’m proposing) that can be used as a validation / conformance target.


One thing I’ve recently done for the libasciidoc toolchain is make it possible to have different backends or different templates, so that the emitted content can be changed by applications, etc.  This will allow me to use this to generate EPUB content with some special things that I want which might not be appropriate for common use, without having to fork the entire toolchain.  I imagine a similar approach could be taken for Java based implementations.


I also realize that I’m approaching this WG from a different position than some others, because I really don’t have much interest in a Java implementation (we already have one after all) – rather I’m interested in a standard that will let me access this from environments that are more natural for me (golang in my case).


Sent from Mail for Windows 10


From: Graeme Smecher
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2020 9:56 AM
To: asciidoc-wg@xxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [asciidoc-wg] AsciiDoc implementation for the Java/JVM ecosystem / project proposal


Hi all,


> 6. Conversion to PDF


I suspect this is deliberately last on the agenda because it's not time

yet. I'm taking the bait anyway...


Given the state of the AsciiDoc-to-PDF workflow (XML-FO, dblatex, CSS3

paged media, asciidoctor-pdf): is there a plan to address PDF generation

at a WG level, rather than on an implementation-by-implementation basis?


As an enthusiastic AsciiDoc user, I find the PDF flow to be the most

fragmented, least consistent, and most frustrating part of the ecosystem

right now. If each language stack follows a different technical path

towards PDF generation I think it will be a missed opportunity.


I have a conflicting meeting today but will be following the mailing

list eagerly.





On 2020-06-16 8:00 a.m., Alexander Schwartz wrote:

> Reminder:

> For those you want to join me on a Jitsi video conference call today: it

> starts in 2 hours from now.


> When: June 16th, 17:00 UTC - Convert to your time zone:


> Where:


> Best regards,

> Alexander


> On 10.06.2020 17:08, Alexander Schwartz wrote:

>> Hi AsciiDoc enthusiasts,


>> the AsciiDoc WG is an exciting effort to standardize the language and

>> to allow the ecosystem to grow on the basis of a common specification.


>> After talking to Dan Allen I volunteered to write a project proposal

>> for an AsciiDoc implementation for the Java/JVM ecosystem. As a

>> maintainer of the AsciiDoc plugin for IntelliJ I have experience in

>> parsing AsciiDoc and using AsciidoctorJ, but I also know he areas

>> where parsing and good tool support is difficult today.


>> What use cases do you see for an AsciiDoc JVM implementation? What

>> contributions do you want to make or see necessary?


>> Please collaborate with me on this draft:



>> To edit the document request access or discuss it on this mailing list.

>> Don't forget to add you and your company to the "Interested Parties"

>> section!


>> For those who want to have a synchronous communication, please join me

>> on a Jitsi video conference call next week:


>> When: June 16th, 17:00 UTC - Convert to your time zone:


>> Where:


>> Please get in contact before the call with all the questions you might

>> have.


>> Best regards,

>> Alexander


> --

> Alexander Schwartz (alexander.schwartz@xxxxxxx)




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