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RE: [wtp-dev] Minutes of the JEE 5 Working Group meeting 11/30/2006
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Hello,
Since there are the minutes are not in the wiki yet, I
answer to the mail.
I want to put a comment on a part of the
discussion:
MA: Is any of this will be in WTP2.0? WTP 1.5.2 is not EJB3
friendly. We need a release of WTP 1.5 that does not complain about EJB3
for JBoss IDE.
DW: I do not want to sound pessimistic. But we will see what can do. But not
sure we will be able to do it in 1.5.3.
CB: I do not think it is a good idea to change the existing models. J2EE is
currently hard coded in the models. The models do not not recognize the
JEE 5 versions and namespaces. We can create a patch so that the namespace can
be handles, all legacy models will be included but anything new will not be
recognized. Any work beyond that will be in 2.0
.......................
CB: I would like to propose tro extend the existing model to handle
XML, recognize the new name space (use the old elements), then start
contributing the new plugins as an extended plugins. In phase 2 we can
start looking at the annotation model. I am not sure when thi scan start
(if at all for WTP 2.0). When we add the support for the namespaces, we can
tolerate the EJB3 descriptors. Extended tools would work. I cannot
commit to it now. We will start with enabling the JEE 5 models. This
work will probably go on after Jan7 (two miletsones left) M5 is before
eclipsecon.
As you remember I have already submitted a patch in the
Bugzilla:
The goal of the patch is to make WTP Java EE 5 friendly.
With the patch it is possible to create valid Java EE 5 projects and deploy them
on Server Runtimes that are Java EE 5 compatible.
Everything is very basic, but it makes possible for the
user to develop Java EE 5 application with WTP.
I think it is a good idea to take a look at the patch again
and to consider using it as a baseground for the Java EE 5 support.
Greetings
Kaloyan
The wiki is down. I will publish the minutes of the first call
here. You will find a copy of these notes at the wiki when it is
back.
---
Minutes of the JEE 5 Working Group meeting
Date:
11/30/2006 / 11 AM
EST
Attendees:
Bob Frost
Shaun Smith
Tim Wagner
David
Williams
Larry Isaacs
Chuck Bridgham
Paul Andersen
Neil
Hauge
Karen Moore
Dave Gordon
John Goodman
Brian Vosburgh
Kaloyan
Raev
Max Andersen
and more....
Summary Transcript:
- ND: Welcome to the first call of the JEE working group. We
will repeat this call weekly to track progress of the implementation.
Working group is composed of the component owner who will lead the
implementation. Today we have a wider audience.
- ND: We will start with a review of the discussion summarized in http://wiki.eclipse.org/index.php/JEE_5_Support.
To start with lets review what is planned in WTP 2.0 for JEE 5 support.
David can you comment on JSP/JSTL support?
- DW: There will be some JSP support for JEE5 for WTP 2.0.
Dteail sare not clear but there is some work
- ND: How about JSTL? I know Raghu was interested in this for
JSF.
- No answers .... Raghu not online
- ND: Neil, Can you comment on JPA and EJB3 status?
- NH: Dali projects covers the JPA spec. The rest of EJB 3 is not in its
scope. There is some work thatcan be used for EJB3 like our way of
handling metadata but we do not support session beans.
- CB: Neil, I know that you have built utilities to handle two different
sources for info: Annotations (metadata) and XML descriptors for the
model. We are also interested in supporting both sources in JEE 5
models. I think a common layer can be extracted from Dali and
contributed to JST. What are your recommendations?
- NH: I can say(hope) that a common model can be defined for both
sources. What we found is things are very different for these
sources. Especially, the behavioral content is very different
(descriptors are quite different). They are not very clean. That has
caused a lot complexity. Annotation do not support everything in the
descriptors + model have to act differently for defaulting - i.e. defaults
specs vs java model.
- PA: For example containment behavior is different. In XML you start with a
mapping, and in the mapping you spec a class. In java you start with
class and do the mapping.
- BV: Another problem is that both models (XML and Annotations) are too flat
for tooling purposes.
- CB: We should start talking about solutions to these problems. Thanks to
SAP for their contributions. The SAP proposal made us look at how to extend
the models. We have to be forward thinking about how to extend the
models for future version i.e JEE6. JEE5 is so different that we need to
separate it cleanly from the existing models. We need interfaces between Java
and XML models. That way we may not need to change the models, which is
very important for backward compatibility. We can add interfaces as
needed.
- MA: Is any of this will be in WTP2.0? WTP 1.5.2 is not EJB3
friendly. We need a release of WTP 1.5 that does not complain about EJB3
for JBoss IDE.
- DW: I do not want to sound pessimistic. But we will see what can do. But
not sure we will be able to do it in 1.5.3.
- CB: I do not think it is a good idea to change the existing models. J2EE
is currently hard coded in the models. The models do not not recognize
the JEE 5 versions and namespaces. We can create a patch so that the namespace
can be handles, all legacy models will be included but anything new will not
be recognized. Any work beyond that will be in 2.0
- CB: What are your thoughts on having model interfaces does not have
dependencies on EMF. We can have a anpother set that has the old style
interfaces with EMF dependencies.
- DW: I support that. Reducing the coupling is better
- CB: EMF provides things like notifications etc. We can provide
overlapping/alternate interfaces
- PA: EMF very slanted towards XML, not natural to use in Java
sometimes
- CB: Neil, you also have done work to extend AST in JDT with
annotation utils. Any plans to push that into a common layer.
- BV: No plans
- CB: We are very interested in having that contributed to a common layer
too. That work is very useful for all kinds of other things.
- BV: JDT has very little. That work allows us to manipulate annotations,
ignorant of types of annotations, it provides all the sugar on annotations.
- DW: These looks like good places to start. I suggest we find things like
that and open a patch to move them to a common layer. And iteratively
see if this can be done.
- SS: There is a lot of support in Dali for editing and validating
annotations. I can build EJB3 sessions. Of course, WTP does not
recognize them as EJBs. To start with we probably do not need any EJB3
editing tools and wizards. I need validation deployment support.
The simple case is just to package them and deploy them. Do not worry
about descriptors.
- CB: I would like to propose tro extend the existing model to handle
XML, recognize the new name space (use the old elements), then start
contributing the new plugins as an extended plugins. In phase 2 we can
start looking at the annotation model. I am not sure when thi scan start
(if at all for WTP 2.0). When we add the support for the namespaces, we can
tolerate the EJB3 descriptors. Extended tools would work. I cannot
commit to it now. We will start with enabling the JEE 5 models.
This work will probably go on after Jan7 (two miletsones left) M5 is before
eclipsecon.
- DW: Ideally we should be done 80% done for M5, M6 should be done and
ready to start the end game.
- CB: What are peoples thoughts on making these changes - old models
and new namespace?
- DW: I would caution against that changes: 1) Any temporary changes
will become permanent. 2) If not needed for WTP I am against it. But we
can provide patches. We should do this incrementally. There are too many
unknowns.
- BV: You cannot do much with XML without knowing about annotations, so
these are temporary changes
- MA: Pure EJB project, you do not need too many descriptors. It is
easier. Now, WTP 1.5 tooling says you have to be complex. To start
with we should think what is the minimal for support for EJB3.
- ND: We can probably support EJB3 facets, other specific JEE 5 facets
and simple projects. If you have done it for JBoss IDE, rre you
interested in contributing that?
- MA: We could, they are quite simple.
- SS: A word of caution.. Even with simple projects, we must support the old
style descriptors so it will not be that easy.
- MA: Maybe we should start with simple case.
- SS: That is what we start in Dali, we will add complexity later.
That is the common use case. Transactions semantics and defaulting is very
similar to DALI
- CB: Enablement you are speaking of does not require XML. That is
what we are trying to get away from
- MA: JBoss IDE EJB3 support is a facet, if we can handle that we will be
done. There are some deployment limitations and specific problems, I
will send to Chuck. Hard coded things and stuff make it hard.
- CB: This will be good, because this will get us started with an
easier use-case that we can work it.
- DW: We should talk about this focus group. It should be limited to
people who are working on the code and should be focused on JEE5 support task.
- ND: Agreed.
- CB: We should use the wiki to start adding comments and minutes. By
next we should start talking about a plan and what to do for the milestones.
- DW: Focus group should be working on the code. For others we can
update status and plans.
- ND: Thanks for attending. The notes will be available at the
wiki. We will meet next week.
--
Naci Dai,
eteration a.s.
itu teknokent ari-1 25
Maslak, Istanbul 34469
+90 (533) 580 2393 (cell)
+90 (212) 328 0825 (phone)
+90 (212) 328 0521 (fax)
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