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RE: [ui-best-practices-working-group] Prep info for discussion on useof ellipsis
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It fascinates me the amount of time
and energy that has gone into three little dots. Perhaps we should
make it a preference? :)
Martin, its too long to try to replay
the arguments but the issue was around notion of completion, which both
guidelines share to some degree but treat regard Preferences differently.
>>Change is work and produces
confusion, so I'm only in favor of
>>change when there is some
advantage.
I agree, but this was an attempt to
be consistent with *some* guideline (which in general has always been MS)
because people copy the platform.
Today is basically our RC1 deadline...
I can't think more on this at this moment sorry.
Kevin
"Mik Kersten"
<mik@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent by: ui-best-practices-working-group-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
05/15/2008 04:44 PM
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| RE: [ui-best-practices-working-group]
Prep info for discussion on
useof ellipsis |
|
I’ve been using Eclipse
without the ellipses on Preferences for a few weeks now, and purely from
a selfish user point of I definitely prefer having them. I would
have figured that I’d be used to them missing at this point, but I’m
not, because all the Microsoft/Adobe/Apple apps that I use on Vista still
have them. In terms of overall consistency, my thinking is still
along the lines stated on the bug: https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=226468#c5
Mik
From: ui-best-practices-working-group-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ui-best-practices-working-group-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Oberhuber, Martin
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 1:21 PM
To: User Interface Architecture Working Group
Subject: RE: [ui-best-practices-working-group] Prep info for discussion
on useof ellipsis
Hi Kevin,
I'm not on the UI WG, but I have
a clear opinion here: pick Apple
where it makes more sense, especially
if it is what we already do.
Change is work and produces confusion,
so I'm only in favor of
change when there is some advantage.
In this case, the Apple guideline
is clearer and without ambiguity;
Microsoft's argument of "Reducing
Screen Clutter" is a non-argument
for me, compared to the advantage
of knowing when choosing a
menu item performs some work right
away versus when I still
have a chance of reviewing stuff
(in a new window) before it fires.
Gimme those Ellipses back!
Cheers,
--
Martin Oberhuber, Senior
Member of Technical Staff, Wind
River
Target Management Project Lead,
DSDP PMC Member
http://www.eclipse.org/dsdp/tm
From: ui-best-practices-working-group-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ui-best-practices-working-group-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of Kevin McGuire
Sent: Mittwoch, 30. April 2008 00:45
To: User Interface Architecture Working Group
Subject: [ui-best-practices-working-group] Prep info for discussion
on useof ellipsis
Hi gang,
Problem Statement
Based on our read of the Vista guidelines, we changed "Preferences..."
to "Preferences". This triggered bug https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=226468
which requested it be changed back. See the bug for the discussion.
In addition to answering the specific question, there's is of course the
general issue of either which guideline to follow, or how to intepret the
Vista/XP guideline.
I thought it'd be fun, since this is a guideline issue, for us to decide
as a group.
Vista/XP
My read of the Vista guideline http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa511453.aspx,
suggests it shouldn't have ellipsis (my bold):
While command buttons are used for immediate actions, more information
might
be needed to perform the action. Indicate a command that needs additional
information (including confirmation) by adding an ellipsis at the end of
the
button label.
Proper use of ellipses is important to indicate that users can make further
choices before performing the action, or even cancel the action entirely.
The
visual cue offered by an ellipsis allows users to explore your software
without
fear.
This doesn't mean you should use an ellipsis whenever an action displays
another window only when additional information is required to perform
the
action. Consequently, any command button whose implied verb is show another
window doesn't take an ellipsis, such as with the commands About, Advanced,
Help (or any other command linking to a Help topic), Options, Properties,
or
Settings.
Generally, ellipses are used in UI to indicate incompleteness. Commands
that
show other windows aren't incomplete they must display another window and
additional information isn't needed to perform their action. This approach
eliminates screen clutter in situations where ellipses have little value.
"Preferences" is much like "Properties", which they
do specifically mention, and seems to fit the case description of being
an implied "Show Preferences".
With respect to XP, the Windows Interface Guidelines book (http://www.amazon.com/Windows-Interface-Guidelines-Software-Design/dp/1556156790)
reads approximately the same and calls out Properties as not deserving,
so I don't think there was a guideline change from XP to Vista, just clarification.
I should add that we've always deferred to the Windows guidelines in cases
where there wasn't something Eclipse specific worth calling out.
Apple
The Apple guideline is more liberal with use of ellipsis http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGText/chapter_14_section_3.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP30000365-TPXREF126
Use an ellipsis in the name of a button or menu item when the associated
action:
...
Is performed by the user in a separate window or dialog.
For example, Preferences, Customize
Toolbar, and Send Feedback all use an ellipsis because they open a window
(potentially in another application, such as a browser) or a dialog in
which the user sets preferences, customizes the toolbar, or sends feedback.
http://dev.eclipse.org/blogs/kevinmcguire/2007/10/12/ellipsis-for-eclipses/To
see why such commands must include an ellipsis, consider that the absence
of an ellipsis implies that the application performs the action for the
user. If, for example, the Send Feedback command did not include an
ellipsis, it would imply that feedback is generated and sent automatically
by the application.
The Apple guideline is simpler and basically
states that if a new window results than you should use ellipsis. It
specifically calls out Preferences and iTunes indeed has "Edit"->"Preferences...".
One plus of the Apple guideline is that there is no ambuiguity. Another
argument is that it more closely matches what we generally do, although
this may be through a lack of knowledge of the Windows guideline. However,
easier to interpret guidelines IS helpful for Eclipse.
Additional Reading
- The bug that started it all, regarding "Reset
Perspective": https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=205521
- My blog entry on the subject: http://dev.eclipse.org/blogs/kevinmcguire/2007/10/12/ellipsis-for-eclipses/
Summary
So the questions are:
1. Did
we correctly interpret the Vista/XP guidelines?
2. Should
we always stick to the Vista/XP guidelines in the absence of something
Eclipse specific which wouldn't be covered by them? (e.g. our view stacks)
3. Or
do we in this particular case (and possibly future ones) pick the Apple
guideline? Reasons for doing so are that it matches more closely what we
already do, or that its easier for people to interpret.
Ladies and gentlemen, the facts are before
you. Your verdict?
Kevin
Bob Fraser <bfraser@xxxxxxx>
Sent by: ui-best-practices-working-group-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
04/28/2008 04:31 PM
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| [ui-best-practices-working-group] Reminder:
Conference Call: Wednesday, April 30th, 17:00 UTC or 10:00 PDT. Call 613.287.8000
or 866.362.7064 passcode 892048# |
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Conference Call: Wednesday, April 30th, 17:00 UTC or 10:00 PDT. Call
613.287.8000 or 866.362.7064 passcode 892048#
Agenda so far:
- Update on UI top ten "Don't do" list
- Discussion on use of ellipses
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