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Re: [tools-pmc] IDE

Thanks, David. I certainly don't expect existing contributors to give more than they already do. And as in your case, I think many are asked to do too much already.

But you are certainly right, and I'm not sure a "PMC" is the right thing either for the reasons you mention. It would certainly be abnormal. But I also don't think it's a working group which appears to be more of an industry consortium but I may be wrong.

Basically what I'm looking for is a group to oversee the Eclipse IDE packages and help influence and guide contributors, much as commercial IDE teams do, except without the reporting structure. Maybe more like Valve manages, or not manages, it's teams.

The best outcome is that this group becomes the first point of contact, people who are users of the Eclipse IDE who want to contribute but don't really care about Eclipse's project structure, they just want a good IDE. We could guide them, help make sure they're heard and accepted, stuff like that.

And, no it's not a slam against the Eclipse PMC. I fully hope that they would participate in this group as well, especially since I'm hoping they're a major beneficiary. Most of the issues reported by IDE users will require changes to the Platform. But this grows beyond that, to consistency between language projects as an example, or managing toolbar and menu clutter when you have multiple projects installed.

Sounds like I'm brainstorming here, and I certainly am. But having such a group would give a home to like minded individuals to work towards common goals bigger than the projects today. Maybe it's not the Tools PMC, but certainly we'd be a big part of it given the projects we represent.


From: David M Williams <david_williams@xxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: Tools PMC mailing list <tools-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Thursday, 18 July, 2013 9:09 PM
To: Tools PMC mailing list <tools-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [tools-pmc] IDE


While I'm sympathetic to your concerns and goals, I am not in a position to sign-up for more work, at this point.

But, I have just enough time to offer some feedback :)

First, I'm not sure what you'd expect this or any other "PMC" to do that is not already being done, or could be done, by any PMC. By definition in the EDP,
= = =
Together the PMC provides oversight and overall leadership for the projects that fall under their top-level project. The PMC as a whole, and the PMC Leads in particular, are ultimately responsible for ensuring that the Eclipse Development Process is understood and followed by their projects. The PMC is additionally responsible for maintaining the top-level project's charter.
= = =

While there's nothing stopping a PMC from "doing extra" or focusing their leadership in one area,  I see little advantage of calling it or focusing on "PMC" part of any name. For example, why not rekindle the "User_Interface" group and form a true "cross-project team"?

Put another way, it is committers that decide what to work on, and a PMC has no "power" direct their work, other than to encourage and cajole.
While effective leaders are quite good at encouraging and cajoling ... to get results ... I'm not sure the "location" of those leaders matter that much, at the Eclipse Foundation.

If you are hoping to get or show interest by a "name change", you could form new "working group" and call it the "IDE Usability Group", or something.

And, if you do that, in the past, when we have had "cross-project teams", the most successful ones, I have seen, had a very specific set of goals to accomplish, and a very concrete time-line in which to accomplish them ... such as 1 month, or 3 months ... they were not open ended expert consulting or management teams.

My last bit of feedback: how is proposing a new IDE PMC not a "put down" of the Eclipse Project PMC? I think I know the answer, and I think I know what you mean and think I know why it is not a criticism of them, but in any descriptions or proposals you might want to make that more clear ... well ... unless that is what you are trying to do. :)  

Thanks for trying to turn our slow moving ship!

From:        Doug Schaefer <dschaefer@xxxxxxx>
To:        Tools PMC mailing list <tools-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx>,
Date:        07/18/2013 10:56 AM
Subject:        [tools-pmc] IDE
Sent by:        tools-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx

Hey gang,

We're having a pretty good discussion on the cross-project list about the future of the Eclipse IDE and ways we can bring in new blood in to help evolve it. There's a really hilarious but painfully truthful site called, which highlights our users' passion and how much little (and sometimes large) usability items affect their lives. But it points out areas that we should be working on.

As part of the strategy, I think we need a group that is focused on Eclipse as an IDE, to manage the strategy and set up little things that can get us kickstarted. And it crosses many projects which is why we can't just rely one on one. My first thoughts were that we need an IDE PMC as that focal point. But then, it's probably obvious that we, the Tools PMC, already have much of that mandate and oversee a lot of the projects that make up the Eclipse IDE.

What are your thoughts? If we brought in a few new members, possibly not from our projects, but people with a vested interest in the Eclipse IDE, even peer PMC members and other community leaders, and reposition the Tools PMC as the IDE PMC, would that make a difference?

And, yes, we do have a pretty poor track record of activity which we can't discount. But focusing specifically on the Eclipse IDE packages and the projects that make up those packages and providing them with "product" management, I have hope that we can make a difference.

Let me know what you think, and that's for anyone following the list, not just the PMC members.

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