Hi
again Mickael,
So we all agree that having SOA/BPM integration is a
powerful thing. And this is one of the goals we are trying to achieve
with Eclipse SOA TLP, on a tooling level as well as with runtime
ramifications. The partners involved in the TLP are interesting in this
combined offer, and this has been the case for a long time I think
(even in Eclipse STP we had BPMN and SCA for instance, as well as other
projects). From an integration perspective, it makes a lot of sense to
work in your BPM space, or your SOA space and have these two integrated
easily.
You’re saying this is just a particular case of
integration between two methodologies. I think it’s more than that,
it’s about integration between the two dominant methodologies that have
been for long seen as orthogonal. The combined offering of these in the
portfolio of major players is not just a marketing stint, it’s also
driven by customer needs. Aside from commercial offers from big players
which I think make this connectivity clear, we have seen this need over
and over in Eclipse, and long-time project partners such as Engineering
have long been offering solutions which required such integration. You
can also see this in the Stardust project proposal, and the list could
go on.
Don’t forget also that SOA is much more than technology
(and much more than an ESB). It’s about thinking about reusable IT
assets in a way that fits more with the enterprise needs for change. So
integrating BPM and SOA goes much further than providing some
connectivity to BPM. I could go on about this, but what’s important I
guess is that projects that make sense together, be together, and that
a top-level project provide a space for creating cool, vibrant
solutions. I’m happy that this TLP seems to become more active, and
this discussion is proof J
Thanks for your points!
Adrian.
On 05/07/2011
11:17, Mos, Adrian wrote:
Hi
Mickael,
Hi Adrian,
Thank you for your message, this is an interesting point
and worth to be discussed.
I agree that SOA and BPM are different things, and I
think this is something most people would agree with. There are 2
points in your email:
The name of the Eclipse SOA TLP (it indicates SOA but it
also contains BPM stuff)
Whether or not SOA and BPM should be integrated in the
same Eclipse project.
I agree that we can
separate those 2 points. Then I agree on point 1.
Now about the 2nd point:
On your second point though, I am of the opinion that SOA
and BPM should be integrated, and in fact this is perceived as one of
the main challenges today in the field. Companies need to have a strong
SOA base and a strong BPM methodology and these two MUST be integrated.
should or MUST ;)
You can obviously have one without the other but this
brings a lot of limitations.
I don't see any
limitation of using BPM without SOA. Of course, having a well-built SOA
platform will allow you to consume more easily some other services of
your Business Processes, but not having SOA is not a limitation when
developping processes. Having SOA is a benefit for BPM, like having
access to database or mail server or ability to connect to your ERP. I
think everything is just about providing connectivity in your
processes. SOA is a good way to provide good connectivity, but the
coupling is very low for me.
This is in fact perceived in the commercial offers of
many large players, where they try to integrate the two paradigms as
well as possible.
Of course,
commercial offers prefer selling a BPM solution + a SOA solution than
selling only a BPM solution ;) I am still not sure about the necessity
for _need_ for such a strong coupling between BPM and SOA.
Sure, for small companies using (for now) one of the 2
(either some SOA runtime or some BPM engine), this is not a problem,
they can still ‘choose’ because in many SOA or BPM offerings there is
some degree of hybridization that brings ‘enough’ capabilities for
limited environments. However, large enterprises that have important
investments in both SOA and BPM (or in one of them but with plans to
tackle the other as well), it is important that the two be very well
integrated.
Ok, about providing
integrations. I understand than having good BPM with good SOA is a very
powerful thing, like having your BPM interacting with your ERP. But
there is no ERP related-stuff in the SOA TLP, whereas there is SOA...
The coupling is as strong between BPM and SOA than between BPM and ERP,
than between ERP and SOA.
My concern is first about the naming (point 1), but also about the
coupling (point 2). IMHO, the links between BPM and SOA are weak, both
are independant, but there are possible integrations. There are always
possible integrations between methodologies and technologies, this case
is not a specific one.
So yes, they should be in the same top-level project
because this facilitates integration (both conceptual and practical).
I'm not convinced
;) But I am not trying to make a revolution, the idea is more to start
this debate and think about what people do with BPM and SOA, and how
Eclipse can provide the best experience for them in these fields.
Simplicity often provides the best experience.
Again, on the question of name of the TLP, this is
something that the PMC should probably re-consider at some point.
+1
Regards,
