RE: [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT web site

[Paul Elder <pelder@xxxxxxxxxx>]

-1

Rich, I feel such a policy is too broad.


An example: the current EMF web site
has links to articles about EMF: devX, IBM developerWorks, etc.... This
policy would force Ed to remove all the links to devWorks articles, significantly
reducing the discoverability of much writing about EMF. I believe this
would be a net loss for the community.

I'm trying to clarify the intent of
this proposed ban. I think it is to ensure that projects and components
create their communities via Eclipse.org, and that project/component leadership
is not a platform for promoting a specific external organization or product.
Thus, I could go far:

1) Projects/components must host their
development and communities using the Eclipse infrastructure (CVS/SVN,
mailing lists and news groups, download.eclipse.org)
2) The project/component web site may
include links to the sponsoring organizations provided that:
     a) the links do
not subvert #1
     b) the links are
informational in nature (i.e. not blatantly commerical).
     c) there is a process
for other organizations to contribute similar links.

So, I think any and all of the following
would be OK:
* links to developerWorks articles (e.g.
if the project is lead by IBM), provided that the web site clearly provides
a mechanism for others to contribute links to other artciles on other sites.
(A link to a bugzilla template would do nicely).
* links to products known to include
the project/component, provided that no one product is promoted above the
others, and there is a mechanism for any organization to be included on
the list.

Thoughts?

Paul Elder
IBM Rational Software
Tel: +1-613-599-3916
E-mail: pelder@xxxxxxxxxx

"Kenn Hussey" <Kenn.Hussey@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent by: modeling-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx

2007-10-19 04:03 PM

Please respond to
PMC members mailing list <modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx>

To	"PMC members mailing list" <modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
cc	Bjorn Freeman-Benson <bjorn.freeman-benson@xxxxxxxxxxx>, Markus Voelter <voelter@xxxxxxx>, modeling-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
Subject	RE: [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT web site

+1.

Kenn Hussey
Program Manager, EA/Studio

[Embarcadero Technologies Logo]

Embarcadero Technologies, Inc. | www.embarcadero.com 
110 Spadina Avenue, Suite 400 | Toronto, ON  M5V 2K4
Kenn.Hussey@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Mobile: 613-301-9105


-----Original Message-----
From: modeling-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:modeling-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Ed Merks
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 4:00 PM
To: PMC members mailing list
Cc: Bjorn Freeman-Benson; Markus Voelter; PMC members mailing list; modeling-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT web site

Rich,

I know folks might be upset by this, I think off site links aren't
appropriate at Eclipse.

+1


Ed Merks/Toronto/IBM@IBMCA
mailto: merks@xxxxxxxxxx
905-413-3265  (t/l 969)




                    
                     
                     
          
             Richard Gronback    
                     
                   
             <richard.gronback  
                     
                    
             @borland.com>    
                     
                   To
             Sent by:      
           PMC members mailing list  
         
             modeling-pmc-boun    
    <modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx>, Bernd   
             ces@xxxxxxxxxxx    
      Kolb <b.kolb@xxxxxxxxxxx>      
    
                    
                     
                     
       cc 
                    
                  Bjorn Freeman-Benson
               
             10/19/2007 03:48    
     <bjorn.freeman-benson@xxxxxxxxxxx>, 
             PM        
               Markus Voelter <voelter@xxxxxxx>
   
                    
                     
                     
  Subject 
                    
                  Re: [modeling-pmc]
feedback on GMT  
             Please respond to    
    web site              
             
                PMC members  
                     
                     
 
               mailing list    
                     
                     
             <modeling-pmc@ecl  
                     
                    
                 ipse.org>  
                     
                     
  
                    
                     
                     
          
                    
                     
                     
          




I guess Bernd was left off the list of Ed's message, so including in this
thread.
------------------

In the absence of a formally defined policy at the Foundation level on
this
matter, I propose a PMC vote:

Do we forbid all links from the Modeling website at Eclipse.org to
contributing organizations (commercial, academic, or otherwise) until such
time there is a posted Foundation-sanctioned policy?

My vote:
+1

Thanks,
Rich


On 10/19/07 3:42 PM, "Ed Merks" <merks@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Bernd,
>
> By the same token, EMF started at com.ibm.etools.emf but you won't
find
> signs of that.   The E in EMF even stood for e-tools.  But
when we moved
it
> to Eclipse, we stripped all that is IBM from it, except for the
copyrights.
> I think that's very important.  Even if oAW is not a big corporate
brand,
> it at least gives the appearance of commercial interests being involved.
> After all, folks do consulting under this brand.  And of course
we
greatly
> value your contributions.  After all, GMF is making good use
of Xpand!
> It's the individuals making the contributions that we'd like to
recognize;
> their associated entities should play a secondary role at best.  I'd
like
> to see Eclipse provide some type of "list of credits under help"
where
> contributors, committers, and their sponsoring affiliations could
be
> advertised.  I think that would be the appropriate place for
non-Eclipse
> bands to appear.   I think the oAW brand is only appropriate
as an
external
> distro, like MyEclipse...
>
>
> Ed Merks/Toronto/IBM@IBMCA
> mailto: merks@xxxxxxxxxx
> 905-413-3265  (t/l 969)
>
>
>
>
>
>              "Bernd Kolb"
>              <b.kolb@kolbware.
>              de>
To
>              Sent by:    
             "'Richard Gronback'"
>              modeling-pmc-boun
        <richard.gronback@xxxxxxxxxxx>,
>              ces@xxxxxxxxxxx  
        "'Ian Skerrett'"
>                    
                   <ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx>,
>                    
                   "'ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx,
>              10/19/2007 02:27  
       PMC members mailing list'"
>              PM      
                 <modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx>,
>                    
                   "'Markus
Voelter'"
>                    
                   <voelter@xxxxxxx>
>              Please respond to
cc
>                 PMC members
>                mailing list
Subject
>              <modeling-pmc@ecl
        RE: [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT
>                  ipse.org>
            web site
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Ian, Rich, Ed, Jean
>
> openArchitectureWare has been a project which has started independent
of
> Eclipse and has been integrated into GMT at some point. Hence it does
have
> its own brand and a quite large community including a webpage with
a
forum
> on it. Just to clarify, oAW is driven by individuals, not by a company.
> Most
> of the developers are not paid for what they do to oAW, at least not
> directly. It is one of the purposes of GMT to provide a way of
integrating
> promising new or existing projects into the Eclipse universe.
>
> However, we are aware that for openArchitectureWare this is a temporary
> state: at the moment we are in the process of splitting oAW into several
> pieces that will end up in various Eclipse Modeling project, dropping
the
> openArchitectureWare name in the process.
>
> For example, the process has been finished for the Modeling Workflow
Engine
> (MWE) which can now be found in EMFT and is being removed from
> openArchitectureWare. If you have a look at the code and the
documentation
> you?ll find no references to openArchitectureWare anymore. The same
will
be
> true for our Xpand contribution to the model-to-text component; it
is
> currently in the process of being migrated to M2T.
>
> After we finished this process, openArchitectureWare will be much
less
> important. Our goal is to keep the "brand" oAW as a kind
of
"distribution"
> of well-cooperating Eclipse modeling components, combined with a set
of
> more
> experimental modeling related tools. We hope to finish this process
within
> the next few weeks.
>
> I'd just want to make one remark w/r/t the branding of components.
I
think
> the modeling project is different from the rest of the Eclipse projects.
> Here we have e.g. a project called Model-to-model. It contains several
> languages (components), basically doing the same. It is ok to have
these
> different languages with the same functionality. However, it is important
> to
> show the user when he should/could use which component. Thus, in EMP
> components are much more independent from each other than in all other
> Eclipse projects. I think it is good here to have a little branding
(within
> a limited range, I agree) which gives these components an identity.
And
> helps the users to distinguish them
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Bernd
>
>
>
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen
> Bernd Kolb
> (b.kolb@xxxxxxxxxxx)
> http://www.kolbware.de
>
> --
> KolbWare
> (Beratung & Coaching)
> Bernd Kolb
> Franz-Marc Str. 35
> 89520 Heidenheim
>
> Mobil: 0163/7321605
>
> From: Richard Gronback [mailto:richard.gronback@xxxxxxxxxxx]
> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 7:40 PM
> To: Ian Skerrett; ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx, PMC members mailing list;
Bernd
> Kolb; Markus Voelter
> Subject: Re: [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT web site
>
> Thanks for the ATL observation, Ian.  I was under the impression
that our
> ?identity crisis? components were all within GMT.  ATL has graduated
from
> GMT recently, as have several components of oAW, but I see they still
have
> a
> reference to the ATLAS Group on their page.  This should be removed,
along
> with other references such as the Acknowledgement section at the bottom
of
> this page: http://www.eclipse.org/m2m/atl/usecases/webapp.modeling/
 Of
> course, the logos are not what you mean, right?  We have lots
of logos in
> use within Modeling.
>
> Until such time there is a policy for advertising external entities
> (commercial, academic, or otherwise) on the Eclipse.org website, I
agree
> that all references should be removed.  As Ed mentioned, you
won?t find
> links to IBM or Borland on the EMF or GMF sites.
>
> Regarding oAW, we have had discussions with them and decided the most
> painless approach was to require they strip their oAW identity when
> graduating to other modeling projects, also as Ed mentioned. The Xpand
and
> Workflow components are undergoing a namespace refactoring as they
migrate,
> and we?ll make sure there are no oAW on the M2T and EMFT websites.
 We?ll
> certainly try to speed up this process.
>
> Another timely topic is the recent announcement of the oAW 4.2 release
(
> http://www.eclipse.org/gmt/oaw/news/index.php  and
> http://www.eclipse.org/gmt/oaw/download/).  I don?t recall a
release
review
> taking place for this component (or ever for GMT), and I see they
are
still
> providing links to download from www.openarchitectureware.org on their
> download page.  Hopefully, we can correct this ASAP.
>
> Thanks,
> Rich
>
>
> On 10/19/07 1:12 PM, "Ian Skerrett" <ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
> What I would suggest is that the components of GMT should not have
a
> logo/graphic and have a descriptive name not a nickname.  I think
this
> would
> go a long way to improving the situation.   Btw, this goes
for all the
> modeling sub-projects, for instance
> http://www.eclipse.org/m2m/atl/   Having all these
different logos in my
> opinion conveys a perception that
> there is no strategy or integration between the components or the
> projects.
> My 2 cents?.
> Ian
> ________________________________________
> From: jbezivin@xxxxxxxxx [mailto:jbezivin@xxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Jean
> Bezivin
> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 12:48 PM
> To: PMC members mailing list
> Cc: ian.skerrett@xxxxxxxxxxx; Bjorn Freeman-Benson;
> modeling-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: [modeling-pmc] feedback on GMT web site
>
>
> I agree with you.
>
>
>
> I also agree that we have to improve much the organization of GMT.
>
>
>
> For oAW matters, I will transmit these remarks to Markus Voelter.
>
> I will discuss with him directly next week at OOPSLA because
>
> he will be there.
>
>
>
> Bjorn, will you be at OOPSLA and if yes would it be possible
>
> to have a short meeting with Markus to stress the importance
>
> of what has been said?
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
>
>
> Jean
>
> On 10/19/07, Ed Merks <merks@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Ian,
>
> I'll draw Nick's attention to that link gone astray...
>
> I agree with you.  As the various parts of the oAW technology
are
> incorporated into the other projects, like Xpand into M2T and MWE
into
> EMFT, I'll ask folks to avoid any non-Eclipse branding on the site.
 You
> won't find IBM/Rational branding nor Borland branding at Eclipse,
so we
> ought not be to seeing anything that isn't part of Eclipse's branding.
> We'll queue up this topic for discussion at the next PMC meeting.
>
> It would be good to improve GMT's image as well.  What are your
thoughts
on
>
> this Jean?
>
>
> Ed Merks/Toronto/IBM@IBMCA
> mailto: merks@xxxxxxxxxx
> 905-413-3265  (t/l 969)            "Ian
Skerrett"            <
> ian.skerrett@ecl            ipse.org
<http://ipse.org>
>>                                                  To            Sent
> by:                  <modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx <
> mailto:modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>             modeling-pmc-boun
>>                                          cc            ces@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>          "'Bjorn
>  Freeman-Benson'"                                      <
>
bjorn.freeman-benson@xxxxxxxxxxx>                                             

>                      Subject            10/19/2007
>  12:06          [modeling-pmc]
feedback on GMT
> web             PM
                       site            Please
respond
> to            ian.skerrett@ecli             pse.org
<http://pse.org> ;
> Please              respond
to              PMC
> members               mailing
> list            <modeling-pmc@ecl                ipse.org
<
http://ipse.org>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Modeling PMC,
>
> Today, I was looking at the open Achitectureware project and in general
the
>
> GMT project.   I don?t usually provide feedback on project
specific
> branding and marketing but I thought compelled to do so in this case.
>
> IMHO, from a branding and marketing perspective, the open
Architectureware
> project looks out of place in the context of the Eclipse community.
 They
> essentially look like they have parachuted in their existing project
into
> an Eclipse project web page.  They actually also seem to have
another
> project web site http://www.openarchitectureware.org/.  I find
it all
very
> confusing and probably detrimental to the Eclipse brand.
>
> If I look at the GMT site, it seems like the open architectureware
scenario
>
> plays out again and again.   I see lots of project logos
and cool names
> that seem to have very little to do with Eclipse?  The perception
I am
left
> with is that GMT is hovering up existing modeling projects but not
really
> integrating them into Eclipse?  I think what you are doing is
creating an
> incubator for new modeling projects, which is great, but in my opinion
what
> you are communicating is something very different and will hurt the
> perception of the overall modeling project.
>
> As I said, I usually don?t provide this type of feedback but in this
case
I
> just had to say something.   I?d be happy to discuss further
and if you
> want.
>
> Btw, when I went to try to find the PMC mailing list, the link on
this
page
> http://www.eclipse.org/modeling/ points to
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/emft-dev
>
>
> Ian
>
> Ian Skerrett
> Director of Marketing
> Eclipse Foundation
> 613-224-9461 ext. 227
> blog: ianskerrett.wordpress.com  <http://ianskerrett.wordpress.com>
> _______________________________________________
> modeling-pmc mailing list
> modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/modeling-pmc
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> modeling-pmc mailing list
> modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/modeling-pmc
>
>
>
> --
> Richard C. Gronback
> Borland Software Corporation
> richard.gronback@xxxxxxxxxxx
> +1 860 227 9215
>
> _______________________________________________
> modeling-pmc mailing list
> modeling-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx
> https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/modeling-pmc
>
>

--
Richard C. Gronback
Borland Software Corporation
richard.gronback@xxxxxxxxxxx
+1 860 227 9215

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