I think I have already summarized all the principal issues I see thus far - pretty much everywhere that my personal bandwidth allows. None of this should be news to key decision makers.
To summarize it in one sentence: I don't think MicroProfile was ever designed to be an open standard and we should be careful conflating it with Jakarta EE willy nilly. Sometimes good boundaries really do make for better neighbors.
Jakarta EE clearly was designed to be an open standard in the same vein Java EE was. Open standards are the real reason many of us bothered supporting Java EE in the first place. If the commitment to what that stands for in every sense is no longer valued, I personally can say I don't see compelling enough value in Jakarta EE going forward either. Sans open standards, we have a very strong and compelling long time de-facto standard in server side Java. Might as well just get behind that and finally consolidate the ecosystem.
I suspect most of the community sees that already and perhaps have already tuned out of all this for these very reasons. We should be a bit more aware of these very real possibilities instead of only seeing things from the perspective of what seems convenient and comfortable at the moment. I certainly don't want to see all this end in failure after all these years. Indeed it greatly pains me to have to say any of this frankly. I really wished I did not need to...
Reza Rahman Principal Program Manager Java on Azure
Please note views expressed here are my own as an individual community member and do not represent the views of my employer.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message -------- From: Guillermo González de Agüero <z06.guillermo@xxxxxxxxx> Date: 9/21/19 1:15 PM (GMT-05:00) To: JakartaEE Spec Project Leadership discussions <jakartaee-spec-project-leads@xxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: [jakartaee-spec-project-leads] Jakarta NoSQL and Eclipse MicroProfile Configuration
I wasn't aware of that and I didn't know Oracle employees were unable to contribute to MP due to IP flow issues.
But if that's the case, it should be discussed as an MP issue that is potentially preventing contributions.
Do you see other problems besides that? It's definitely worth looking at it now that Jakarta EE is ready to go.
As Oracle leadership correctly mentioned during Oracle Code One, there are even bigger issues besides the fact that these are fundamentally different processes (if MicroProfile even can be said to have much of a defined process) and that this will introduce complexity, inconsistency and confusion basically forever for everyone involved - especially people that will need to advocate for this technology as independents. The IP flow for MicroProfile is murky. As a result, I don't think Oracle can even legally accept just incorporating MicroProfile into Jakarta EE without further proper standardization. This is indeed why Oracle employees are not allowed to contribute to MicroProfile today.
The fact that MicroProfile Configuration is stable is the very reason it makes sense to properly assimilate and harmonize it into Jakarta EE as opposed to keep it in MicroProfile any more. In my view, that cannot be said of many other if any other MicroProfile specifications.
Reza Rahman Principal Program Manager Java on Azure
Please note views expressed here are my own as an individual community member and do not reflect the views of my employer.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message -------- Date: 9/21/19 7:16 AM (GMT-05:00) Subject: Re: [jakartaee-spec-project-leads] Jakarta NoSQL and Eclipse MicroProfile Configuration
One problem I see with Jakarta EE depending on MP specs is the different backward compatibility policies. MP only allows breaking compatibility on major versions while I expect Jakarta EE to stay even more conservative (similar to Java EE).
In that sense, moving the Config spec to Jakarta EE (keeping the package) would basically stabilize its processes to the same level as Jakarta EE. The Config spec is pretty mature so this move wouldn't hurt it. But for the time being, and given that we all agree we don't want to change packages, I think it's reasonable for Jakarta NoSQL to depend on MP Config while we decide how to handle this situation. In the end, the API will be the same. Jakarta JNoSQL needs to rely on MP Config. The discussion is to make MP Config adopted by Jakarta Specs without any package name changes. Jakarta specs are available to MP specs already. Personally, I would like to see MP specs to be adopted by Jakarta specs. Thanks Emily As I'm reading this I'm trying to understand why there'd need to be a Jakarta Config spec in order for individual Jakarta specs like NoSQL, etc. to use MicroProfile Config.
Is this fundamentally different from the individual Jakarta specs evolving to use new Java language features (a process not controlled by Jakarta).
If it gets to the point that there are a set of special cases for Jakarta applications then maybe that would be a good time to launch a Jakarta Config spec, but for now couldn't individual specs just start using MP Config and see where it goes?
That said.. I think it's smart to discuss first and get a consensus this isn't a completely wrong direction to head down..
------------------------------------------------------
Scott Kurz
WebSphere Batch and Compute Grid
Development and Level 3 Team Lead
http://www.ibm.com/support/techdocs/atsmastr.nsf/WebIndex/WP102544
skurz@xxxxxxxxxx
--------------------------------------------------------
![Inactive hide details for Mark Little ---09/19/2019 10:16:21 AM---+1 > On 18 Sep 2019, at 20:35, Josh Juneau <juneau001@gmail.c]() Mark Little ---09/19/2019 10:16:21 AM---+1 > On 18 Sep 2019, at 20:35, Josh Juneau <juneau001@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
From: Mark Little <markclittle@xxxxxxxxx>
To: JakartaEE Spec Project Leadership discussions <jakartaee-spec-project-leads@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: 09/19/2019 10:16 AM
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [jakartaee-spec-project-leads] Jakarta NoSQL and Eclipse MicroProfile Configuration
Sent by: jakartaee-spec-project-leads-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
+1
On 18 Sep 2019, at 20:35, Josh Juneau <juneau001@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I agree that the Jakarta EE Platform should adopt MicroProfile Config as a standard spec. However, I do not feel that there should be any need for renaming or changing the MicroProfile Config project. MicroProfile should still be able to continue evolving separately.
Is it possible for Jakarta EE to adopt MicroProfile Config as the reference implementation for a "Jakarta EE Config" spec? In my mind, this would be much like Weld is the reference implementation for CDI, although namespaces are different between the two.
Thanks
Josh Juneau
juneau001@xxxxxxxxx
http://jj-blogger.blogspot.com
https://www.apress.com/us/search?query=Juneau
On Sep 18, 2019, at 7:35 PM, Emily Jiang <emijiang6@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
My preference is to go through a lightweight boarding process. I am against the idea of renaming packages.
Thanks
Emily
On Sep 18, 2019 at 2:50 pm, <Kevin Sutter> wrote:
Correct. Do not assume that just because we have to change javax to "jakarta" that it applies to all projects that might someday be associated with Jakarta EE. The javax rename is a special case due to Oracle requirements. As Dmitry points out this whole area needs further discussion.
---------------------------------------------------
Kevin Sutter
STSM, MicroProfile and Jakarta EE architect
e-mail: sutter@xxxxxxxxxx Twitter: @kwsutter
phone: tl-553-3620 (office), 507-253-3620 (office)
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinwsutter
From: "dmitry.kornilov" <dmitry.kornilov@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: JakartaEE Spec Project Leadership discussions <jakartaee-spec-project-leads@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: 09/18/2019 12:31 PM
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [jakartaee-spec-project-leads] Jakarta NoSQL and Eclipse MicroProfile Configuration
Sent by: jakartaee-spec-project-leads-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
It doesn't mean it. Where is an option to keep microprofile.io namespace. We need to discuss it.
- Dmitry
-------- Исходное сообщение --------
От: Otavio Santana <otaviopolianasantana@xxxxxxxxx>
Дата: 18.09.2019 10:56 (GMT-08:00)
Кому: JakartaEE Spec Project Leadership discussions <jakartaee-spec-project-leads@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Тема: Re: [jakartaee-spec-project-leads] Jakarta NoSQL and Eclipse MicroProfile Configuration
If move Eclipse MicroProfile into Jakarta EE process means a new package name such as jakarta.config.
I don't think that is a good idea, because several people use Eclipse MicroProfile in production. So, we are going to have two projects to the same thing (one as MicroProfile and a second one as Jakarta), and sometimes it might mean copy/paste from/to projects. Therefore, smell code on both projects.
On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 10:36 AM Dmitry Kornilov <dmitry.kornilov@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Emily,
I have a better idea. Let's make MP Config the first spec which follows Jakarta EE spec process. It will make it a full Jakarta EE citizen and open doors to other specs to use it. :)
Thanks,
Dmitry
On 18 Sep 2019, at 05:38, Emily Jiang <emijiang6@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Otavio,
As promised via our chat, I would share my view here.
I totally agree that Configuration is very important for developing cloud-native microservices. It is a best practice in 12-Factor App to make microservice configurable. MicroProfile Config exists for exactly that reason. I strongly recommend to use it.
As for your question of whether it is ok for Jakarta EE to depend on Eclipse MicroProfile Config, I think it is a good idea. Since many people including Adam Bien, myself, etc, seriously think Jakarta EE + MicroProfile are very powerful together and most of time they are needed at the same time, I strongly think it makes sense for Jakarta EE specs also utlising MicroProfile specs such as MicroProfile Config, etc. MicroProfile specs already pull in Jakarta EE specs, such as CDI, JAX-RS, JSON-B and JSON-P. Technically Jakarta EE should be able to pull in MicroProfile specs.
If a lightweight onboarding process is needed to enable MicroProfile specs to be used in Jakarta Specs, I am ok with that. It is very important that MicroProfile and Jakarta continue complementing with each other not competing with each other.
My 2cents.
Emily
On Sun, Sep 15, 2019 at 9:07 PM Otavio Santana <otaviopolianasantana@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hello everyone, I have one question about the integration between Jakarta and Eclipse MicroProfile.
As you know, Jakarta EE has the goal of the cloud-native application, so we tend to use good practices on that.
There is the twelve-factor of an Appthat has the good practices of delivery your application in the cloud, and the third item there is the configuration.
My whole point here is that need to have one API to all Jakarta EE project to use related to configuration. We might use this API on several projects such as JPA, JMS, and so on. Right now, we're facing this discussion on Jakarta NoSQL.
My question is: Do we have plans to integrate Jakarta EE with Eclipse MicroProfile Configuration?
I'm not happy with a copy/paste approach from a feature that already exists, because that means two points to maintain; furthermore, that is not good code practices.
In the cloud, the perspective configuration will be like CDI, because several specifications are going to use it. Right now, my best shot to Jakarta NoSQL is to use only in the Reference implementation and put it as optional.
--
Otávio Santana
twitter: http://twitter.com/otaviojava
site: http://about.me/otaviojava
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Thanks
Emily
=================
Emily Jiang
ejiang@xxxxxxxxxx
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