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Re: [jakartaee-platform-dev] [DISCUSS] Include Jakarta Data in EE 11



You state,

>  There are other aspects and design decisions that we think are problematic from a API user's point of view (CrudRepository returning Streams, Keyset scrolling intermingled with pagination etc.) but I think that discussion is to be had on a different channel.


Please start those discussions in Jakarta Data spec issues.  This is the first I’ve seen those points brought up, but there is plenty of time left to make improvements and fixes.  It’s possible they were stated somewhere and I missed them or maybe they were compromised away in various negotiations that happen to move forward.  I can’t say what happened but let’s get these things addressed now while there is still time.


I’m sorry that I misunderstood Spring’s intention about implementing the spec – I thought I heard it on one of the calls toward the beginning, but maybe I didn’t realize who was speaking and mistook another vendor for Spring.  That said, it does matter greatly whether or not you are going to implement the specification.  The spec participants are well aware how dominant Spring is in the space and the value of you being onboard with the specification.  The reality is this gives proposals from Spring outsized weight in the minds of the other spec participants.  However, if you are deciding against implementing the specification, then that incentive disappears and consideration will be given on technical merit alone – the same as any other participant, and some things you ask for can be expected to be compromised away and at times consensus will go contrary to what you require.  I’d certainly recommend that if you do choose to implement the Jakarta Data specification, make it known upfront when you make statements and proposals that are absolute requirements of Spring providing an implementation of the spec vs just opinions or ideas to consider and think more about.  Up to this point that has rarely ever been clear, possibly resulting in decisions you find unacceptable without the spec community realizing it.



From: jakartaee-platform-dev <jakartaee-platform-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf of Werner Keil via jakartaee-platform-dev <jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Thursday, July 13, 2023 at 12:39 PM
To: jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx <jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: Werner Keil <werner.keil@xxxxxxx>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [jakartaee-platform-dev] [DISCUSS] Include Jakarta Data in EE 11

On the contrary, the industry just becomes more diverse, therefore having specs like Data or NoSQL or MVC that can be added to ANY profile including Core makes more sense. Wildfly or OpenLiberty same as other Jakarta EE implementations pick


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On the contrary, the industry just becomes more diverse, therefore having specs like Data or NoSQL or MVC that can be added to ANY profile including Core makes more sense.


Wildfly or OpenLiberty same as other Jakarta EE implementations pick what they like from the "basket" of MicroProfile, where just a small number of specs are mandatory or implemented by almost every vendor.


One could argue throwing everything into at least the Full Profile of the Platform is possible, but that also increases the burden on vendors, thus why not have a number of "mix & match" specs.



Gesendet: Donnerstag, 13. Juli 2023 um 19:24 Uhr
Von: "Scott Stark via jakartaee-platform-dev" <jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
An: "jakartaee-platform developer discussions" <jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "Scott Stark" <starksm64@xxxxxxxxx>
Betreff: Re: [jakartaee-platform-dev] [DISCUSS] Include Jakarta Data in EE 11

But specs can be included in products without being in the platform. This is not Java EE any longer. 


On Thu, Jul 13, 2023 at 4:23AM Steve Millidge (Payara) via jakartaee-platform-dev <jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

We have a “chicken and egg” problem here. We can’t see how something bakes/matures in the market without shipping it in products.  So I think there is a middle ground option here before making it mandatory for all in a platform profile.


First Jakarta Data goes GA on 1.0.
Second a number of vendors commit to shipping a Jakarta Data implementation in their products on the Jakarta EE 11 timeframe.

Third adoption and usage is reviewed to see if there is merit to inclusion in a platform profile.


I think this can give real world feedback as to the maturity of the spec in the real world.


Same comment for all 3 under discussion.



Steve Millidge
Founder & CEO


From: jakartaee-platform-dev <jakartaee-platform-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Edward Burns via jakartaee-platform-dev
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2023 4:10 AM
To: Emily Jiang via jakartaee-platform-dev <jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: Edward Burns <Edward.Burns@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [jakartaee-platform-dev] [DISCUSS] Include Jakarta Data in EE 11


Hello Platform Dev,


I have attempted to capture prior discussion about this topic from the following sources:

1.      Agendas: Previous agenda google docs

o   2023

§  Monthly

§  Regular

o   2022

o   2021

o   2020

2.      GitHub Issue: The corresponding issue in

3.      Platform-dev Archive: Any mails on the archive at

1.      Agendas


·        Jakarta Data

o   Monitoring the progress

o   Too early to decide now

o   TCK isn’t written yet

o   Will run a formal vote on the mailing list to decide whether to include or not later

o   Target profile start: web?

§  Inclusion history

·        First time at the gate

·        Spring Data similarity. Layer on top of JPA.

§  Data does define a number of aspects of platform integration.

§  Jan shared some aspects of Spring Data vs. the way Jakarta Data is proceeding.

·        There was some disagreement about the extent to which the Data team did reach compromise.

2.      GitHub Issue

Hantsy wrote:

I have used Microaunt Data and Spring Data in projects, compared to these existing Repository solution, I think Jakarta Data needs more time to enter the Jakarta main release train. Currently in Jakarta EE 10, we lack reactivestreams(or Java 9 Flow) and context propagate support in the core specs, such as http, cdi, tx, etc. Jakarta EE 11 discussion leaves some room for the common spec, we could consider these. Personally I like the idea, and I would like to use all akarta EE specs seamlessly like using Spring in the application development, not spend time researching the gap between specs. I am not sure if the Jakarta Data 1.0 will include async, and reactive streams( or Java 9 Flow API) support and if they(eg. Java 9 Flow) are supported in other spec(servlet, faces, rest).

Scott Stark wrote:

Red Hat will vote no on its inclusion. It needs more bake time in implementations.

Werner Keil wrote:

@starksm64 Hopefully Red Hat also finds the time to participate as other provider reps do, especially given its mother company IBM co-chairs the spec? ;-)

Whenever it's considered ready (hopefully by Jakarta EE 12) I would not outrule the Core Platform either, but at least Web sounds fine.

Nathan Rauh wrote:

For all of those who have already decided on a No vote this early on, I'd like to collect your feedback about what is lacking from the 1.0 release of Jakarta Data. (Thank you @hantsy for pointing out that you want to see Reactive/Flow included). We still have 6 months of spec development timeframe at this point, and if you have concerns or specific requirements, it might be possible to add what you believe is lacking to version 1.0. Over-generalized statements that the specification lacks maturity are not particularly helpful and are somewhat confusing given that the established products (Spring Data and Micronaut) are expected to become implementations of Jakarta Data. It would be much more helpful to know exactly what from Spring Data and Micronaut that the Jakarta Data spec hasn't already standardized that you would like to see included.

Scott Stark wrote:

This spec is largely a copy of the Spring Data repository effort, and this is not something we fundamentally agree with. We advocate a active record pattern to our users in our products, so fundamentally we disagree with this spec as a general approach for any profile or platform. Given that these cannot have an optional specification, the data spec would have to be getting traction in other EE implementations and generating user interest before we would consider this for a profile or platform.

Nathan Rauh wrote:

Involvement from RedHat to help shape the specification would certainly be welcome. Its current focus on unifying Spring/Micronaut/JNoSQL follows from the contributions of participants.

3.      Platform-dev Archive: I could not find any discussion in the archive. There may be discussion, but I could not find it. Anyone with better search skills please do provide links.



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