| Re: [jakartaee-platform-dev] : Additional profiles |
I can attest you are not alone. A large part of the end user community has trouble understanding why moving things to the JCP/Java EE was deemed OK but moving things to Jakarta EE is somehow more problematic. It is indeed cause for some cognitive dissonance._______________________________________________Reza RahmanJakarta EE Ambassador, Author, Blogger, SpeakerPlease note views expressed here are my own as an individual community member and do not reflect the views of my employer.On Mar 25, 2021, at 10:39 AM, Mike Milinkovich <mike.milinkovich@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I agree that the issue is not whether the spec comes from another source whether that is an Eclipse Foundation working group or the W3C.
The issue is that MicroProfile explicitly states that breaking changes are permitted while Jakarta explicitly states they are not. The impedance mismatch is caused by explicitly differing intentions.
Separately, I would add that I personally suffer some degree of cognitive dissonance because it was once thought reasonable to move Config to the JCP but apparently it is unreasonable to move it to Jakarta EE. But maybe that's just me.
On 2021-03-25 9:39 a.m., BJ Hargrave wrote:
Um, Jakarta EE relies on 3rd party specs all the time. JSON, XML, HTTP, SQL, REST, LDAP, SOAP, Java SE Platform, ... Declining to rely on a 3rd party spec just because it comes from another Eclipse Working Group seems quite wrong and is not a valid reason.Points about the stability of the 3rd party spec are valid. This can of course be negotiated with the spec author.--
BJ Hargrave
Senior Technical Staff Member, IBM // office: +1 386 848 1781
OSGi Fellow and OSGi Specification Project lead // mobile: +1 386 848 3788
hargrave@xxxxxxxxxx----- Original message -----
From: Dmitry Kornilov <dmitry.kornilov@xxxxxxxxxx>
Sent by: "jakartaee-platform-dev" <jakartaee-platform-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: Emily Jiang <emijiang6@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: jakartaee-platform developer discussions <jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [jakartaee-platform-dev] [External] : Additional profiles
Date: Wed, Mar 24, 2021 18:38
It was never a good practice to rely on a spec created by another working group. It’s out of control. It can be evolved a not desired way or abandoned. Look what’s happened with MP Tracing when OpenTracing turned into OpenTelemetry.Moving MP Config to Jakarta is definitely one of the options. It has its own pros and cons. As it was created by another WG, moving will require some approval process. I cannot guarantee that it will be accepted as it is without modifications. Or maybe it can be accepted assuming that it will be modified in next releases. If we agree that this option is a way to go, it’s definitely a CN4J responsibility to define how to do it. It will require some time, significant time, considering the fact of how it goes now. The solution with simplified Jakarta Config spec looks easier to me.I think that Core profile must have Config. Even more, I think that other specs in Core must use it.-- DmitryOn 24. 3. 2021, at 23:08, Emily Jiang <emijiang6@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:Well, my suggestion is to move MP Config to Jakarta and put it under core profile and then MP can directly get it back. I am also fine not to put config in the core but not having two configs. Anyway, I think this discussion needs to happen under CN4J.EmilyOn Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 11:40 AM Dmitry Kornilov <dmitry.kornilov@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:What is your idea? How shall we deal with Config in Jakarta EE?-- DmitryOn 23. 3. 2021, at 23:49, Emily Jiang via jakartaee-platform-dev <jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:I disagree with creating a Jakarta Config, which creates a competing message with MicroProfile Config. When MP consumes this core profile, it will have two configs to deal with.MP Config is not huge and I don't see the value to further split it.EmilyOn Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 5:11 PM Dmitry Kornilov <dmitry.kornilov@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:I agree that Config must be in Core profile, but I disagree that it should be MP Config. IMO, it must be Jakarta EE spec. Depending on a spec from another project brings many disadvantages and Jakarta is all about stability and backwards compatibility.I think it should be a new spec which MP Config should possibly extend. It can be very minimalistic like one @ConfigValue annotation. So, there is a similar relationship as between @Inject spec and CDI. Or it can contain the most stable features of MP Config.-- DmitryOn 23. 3. 2021, at 15:32, arjan tijms <arjan.tijms@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:Hi,MP Config of course only given a sufficient stable and guaranteed release plan for Jakarta.I'd almost say this Core profile should be governed by its own working group, who take into account the interests of both EE and MP, being a core profile for them both.Now I know we can't have yet another actual working group, but such Core profile (should it come to fruition in this form) probably benefits from such shared interest governance.Kind regards,Arjan TijmsOn Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 2:59 PM Werner Keil <werner.keil@xxxxxxx> wrote:-1 for MP Config.
Unless the MP Folks can commit on „mature Features“ (a bi like the maturity Level of CNCF) that won’t suddenly receive breaking changes and they also guarantee to provide a Jakarta first Roadmap where e.g. MP Config is migrated to the „jakarta“ Namespace and newest Jakarta release ASAP before any other MP specs it is not ready to be included in any Jakarta EE profile I’m afraid.
Implementations may use it at their own risk but we already see how badly that affects and slows down Jakarta NoSQL and its implementations.
Werner
Gesendet von Mail für Windows 10
Von: arjan tijms
Gesendet: Dienstag, 23. März 2021 14:52
An: jakartaee-platform developer discussions
Betreff: Re: [jakartaee-platform-dev] [External] : Additional profiles
Hi,
Just thinking about Core from another perspective, is having it contain exactly what EE and MP have in common.
So that could be, for now:
Jakarta REST
Jakarta JSON-P/B
Jakarta CDI
Jakarta Security
MP Config
Following this Core profile, both the rest of EE and the rest of MP could depend on it.
Thoughts?
Kind regards,
Arjan Tijms
On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 2:48 PM Reza Rahman <reza_rahman@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I agree persistence is too much for Core. While the issue is that most microservices do persist data, the sources are often varied including simply messaging and some microservices merely perform orchestration of one kind or the other.
Reza Rahman
Jakarta EE Ambassador, Author, Blogger, Speaker
Please note views expressed here are my own as an individual community member and do not reflect the views of my employer.
> On Mar 23, 2021, at 7:27 AM, Lukas Jungmann <lukas.jungmann@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> On 3/18/21, 6:07 PM, "jakartaee-platform-dev on behalf of Emily Jiang via jakartaee-platform-dev" <jakartaee-platform-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> Do we need to put Data Access on the list? Microservices normally need to access a database. Do we want to add JPA or JNoSQL or something else?
>
> This is good question. Both might be too big for the "core". OTOH, when I look the JNoSQL stuff and compare that with current Persistence, I think, it would probably make sense to define sth like "persistence-core" containing annotations common to both of them + some lightweight EntityManager/EntityManagerFactory like interface(s) offering just basic CRUD operations with some unwrap method eventually and nothing more. A Map.Entry or an item in the List could then be seen as trivial implementation of the "Entity" from the "persistence-core". It could be even part of existing common-annotations API. Seeing jakarta.persistence.Entity and jakarta.nosql.mapping.Entity together reminded me times figuring out what type of Node is the code I have to work with using - is it org.w3c.dom.Node or javax/jakarta.xml.soap.Node? - and that can be confusing for users in some cases in the future.
>
> thanks,
> --lukas
>
>
> Thanks
> Emily
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 18, 2021 at 2:59 PM Reza Rahman <reza_rahman@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
> With regards to deployment models, I think it is best to leave it completely open. The problem is that the dust hasn’t quite settled yet and there are several options that make sense to one extent or the other: thin wars, fat/uber jars and hollow jars. I bet it would be hard to get complete consensus on which deployment models should be required.
> With regards to Configuration, one can live with XML but it is far from ideal. I think it is best to aim for property files via a Configuration specification. In addition, a fully Java/annotation way of configuration could also be explored but I think it is a lower priority. If you look at Spring Boot specifically, the properties based configuration mechanism seems to have won out for the most part. In order to get the Core Profile out in time for Quarkus perhaps it is best to leave configuration unspecified at least initially.
>
> Most folks here are probably aware of this analysis of the various ways of bringing Configuration into Jakarta EE: https://reza-rahman.me/2021/02/09/your-input-needed-to-determine-path-for-jakarta-ee-microprofile-alignment/ <https://reza-rahman.me/2021/02/09/your-input-needed-to-determine-path-for-jakarta-ee-microprofile-alignment/>. I think it should help make the discussion a bit easier. All options are workable, but this would be the order for me: A2, A1, B, C. B I think carries too many unnecessary risks and complexities. C I think really sends a poor message to the community as to the relationship between Jakarta EE and MicroProfile. I think effectively what you are proposing is C.
>
> Reza RahmanJakarta EE Ambassador, Author, Blogger, Speaker
>
> Please note views expressed here are my own as an individual community member and do not reflect the views of my employer.
>
>
>
> On Mar 18, 2021, at 6:41 AM, Dmitry Kornilov <dmitry.kornilov@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> We talked a lot about which specs should or should not be included in the core profile. I would like to go a little beyond this topic and talk about two things which are not clear to me. The first is what kind of deployment model should we use?
>
> Logically it should support the standard Jakarta EE deployment model assuming using war/ear archives and supporting multiple deployments. It will provide maximum portability between Jakarta profiles. On the other hand it’s an overhead for the smallest profile. In the most cases microservice is one application, so multiple applications support maybe not needed. XML-based deployment descriptors are something from the last century. We actually don’t want to include any XML processing specs to the core profile and even made them optional in the main Jakarta profile. I am trying to say that maybe deployment specification needs a rework to support more modern approach like yaml or json files or even be based on configuration spec. It’s one of the options. Another option would be using executable jar files the same way as in Spring Boot, Helidon, Quarkus, etc. This approach has many advantages such as unnecessary class loading madness, potential GraalVM native-image support, etc.
>
> Another topic is configuration. There is no doubt that configuration specification is needed in Jakarta. Potentially we can use MicroProfile Config, but we immediately have namespace problems. IMO, Jakarta profile must use/depend on Jakarta specifications only. Recently I talked with Tomas Langer (Helidon architect) and he had an idea of creating a minimalistic config specification in Jakarta which contains one annotation - @ConfigValue. More functionality can be added later. MicroProfile Config can depend on Jakarta Config. It will make possible using MP Config implementations in Core Profile implementations. It makes sense to me.
>
> I would like to hear your opinions.
>
> -- Dmitry
>
>
> On 18. 3. 2021, at 10:51, Dmitry Kornilov <dmitry.kornilov@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> On 17. 3. 2021, at 23:44, Emily Jiang via jakartaee-platform-dev <jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> I think the Cloud Profile from Ivar's doc https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1THhvjZazSFpDE95rqtcdQXgBQxa-B3aMFksq8xKJo08/edit#slide=id.g786c259e4b_0_101 <https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1THhvjZazSFpDE95rqtcdQXgBQxa-B3aMFksq8xKJo08/edit#slide=id.g786c259e4b_0_101>should be renamed to the core profile and the list is a good start. By the way, I don't want to see EJB on the Core profile list. CDI is the replacement for EJB.
>
>
> I think this list can be further shortened to:
>
> JAX-RS
> JSON-B
> Annotation
> Bean Validation
> CDI
> Config
> Security
>
> CDI contains Injection, no need to mention Injection I think.
>
> Since we have JSON-B, do we still need JSON-P?
>
>
>
>
>
> We need both JSONP and JSONB.
>
>
> -- Dmitry
>
>
>
>
> Thanks
> Emily
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 17, 2021 at 3:14 PM arjan tijms <arjan.tijms@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 17, 2021 at 3:33 PM Reza Rahman <reza_rahman@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>
> I think either it is best to leave Web Profile mostly alone (and maybe prune it) or use it as a more effective replacement to Full Profile (and basically treat the Full Profile as mostly legacy).
>
>
> I would like to see the latter option. Speaking with my Piranha Cloud hat on; we're not looking forward to implementing things like the Application Client Container, EAR support, and some of the more obscure aspects of Corba and EJB2 and whatever else still lingers in EJB-full.
>
> Moving at least Concurrency and Authorization to Web Profile (for Authorization, perhaps for simplicity make it a sub-spec of Security), and perhaps a Messaging lite (Messaging with only the newer, simplified API) and Mail, would make the Web Profile essentially the Legacy Free Profile that has been talked about before.
>
> When Concurrency absorbs most of the still useful EJB-based services in an CDI version, EJB-lite can be safely pruned from the Web Profile, IMHO.
_______________________________________________
jakartaee-platform-dev mailing list
jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
To unsubscribe from this list, visit https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/jakartaee-platform-dev
jakartaee-platform-dev mailing list
jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
To unsubscribe from this list, visit https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/jakartaee-platform-dev