[jakarta.ee-spec.committee] Spec Committee Agenda and minutes - Invitati

["Tanja Obradovic (via Google Docs)" <drive-shares-noreply@xxxxxxxxxx>]

tanja.obradovic@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx has invited you to comment on the following document:

Spec Committee Agenda and minutes

Hi All,

as this file never reached most of you, trying again.

Please review all the meeting minutes starting with June 28th, and then, July 12th, 19th and 26th and provide comments, so we can approve on the next call. I have also added Agenda for our next call August 1st, comments are also welcomed for the agenda.

Note: This document looks really big now, however once meeting minutes are approved we’ll publish them at https://jakarta.ee/meeting_minutes/ as pdf files (for each call, separately and dated) and remove them from this file.
This one, then, is going to be our working document for agenda and meeting minutes notes of a current call as well as meeting minutes that need approval.

If any issues please let me know.

Many thanks!
Tanja

Open in Docs

Snapshot of the item below:

Spec Committee Agenda August 1, 2018

Attendees (present in bold):

Kenji Kazumura - Fujitsu, Michael DeNicola

Dan Bandera - IBM, Kevin Sutter

Bill Shannon - Oracle, Ed Bratt, Dmitry Kornilov

Steve Millidge - Payara, Arjan Tijms

Scott Stark - Red Hat, Mark Little

David Blevins - Tomitribe, Richard Monson-Haefel

Ivar Grimstad - PMC Representative

Alex Theedom - Participant Member

Werner Keil - Committer Member

Mike Milinkovich - Eclipse Foundation Paul White, Wayne Beaton, Tanja Obradovic

Actions marked in red with names of individuals or companies

Goals for this call

Approval of the past mtg min

Review actions from the previous call

Requirements and Goals marked final

Discussion on draft on TCK process document

Review of the actions from the previous calls / Agenda

Approval of the past mtg min June 28th, July 12th, July 18th and July 25th left for the call next week

Issues with invites and Google doc for mtg agenda and minutes to be approved

All participants please review and be ready to approve on the next call

Fujitsu

IBM

Oracle

Payara

Red Hat 

Tomitribe

PMC

Participant Member

Committer Member

Eclipse Foundation

Note: once meeting minutes are approved we’ll publish them here as pdf files (for each call, separately  dated). This file in going to be our working document for the agenda and meeting notes of a current call as well as meeting minutes that need approval.

Requirements and Goals document is final?

IP Advisory and Spec Committee call for questions on compatibility / innovation

• Doodle sent out to set up another call
• IP Advisory questions - Mike’s email and Richard Monson-Haefel’s Link to the document 
• Patent Policy document - part of IP Advisory discussion

Can we confirm this? Can we have new spec docs created by referencing old spec + additional new specs, seems to be approved from Oracle legal - need definitive answer from Oracle (primarily, but also ) + IBM + RedHat + PMS (Ivar)

Can we confirm? Other app servers, beside GlassFish can we expect on Jakarta EE 8

• Wildfly- yes
• IBM Open Liberty- yes
• Fujitsu- yes
• Tomitribe - Apache TomEE (Apache project)- yes
• Weblogic - Oracle does not comment on future products
• Payara - ?

TCK (Technology Compatibility Kit) process 

• Link to the discussion document - David Blevins and Richard Monson-Haefel
• Please review and comment, discussion on the next week
• Final version mid August

Writing Eclipse / Jakarta EE / Specification Process documents

Tanja / Wayne working on the document - aim  August 8th 

List of documents that need to be written

• Revisions to existing documents

• Eclipse Contributor Agreement
• Individual Committer Agreement
• Member Committer Agreement
• Terms of Use
• Eclipse Development Process [*]
• Eclipse Foundation Intellectual Property Policy [*]

• New Documents or Agreements In Process

• TCK License + Java EE Trademark Agreement
• Java Trademark License (right to use javax, etc.)
• License to Existing Specifications
• Jakarta EE Participation Agreement
• Eclipse Specification License [*]
• Eclipse TCK License [*]
• Jakarta EE Trademark License [*]
  
  [*] Eclipse Foundation Board approval required

Namespace discussion

• David Blevins to document and invite others to provide feedback.

Spec Committee Meeting Minutes July 25, 2018

Attendees (present in bold):

Kenji Kazumura - Fujitsu, Michael DeNicola

Dan Bandera - IBM, Kevin Sutter

Bill Shannon - Oracle, Ed Bratt, Dmitry Kornilov

Steve Millidge - Payara, Arjan Tijms

Scott Stark - Red Hat, Mark Little

David Blevins - Tomitribe, Richard Monson-Haefel

Ivar Grimstad - PMC Representative

Alex Theedom - Participant Member

Werner Keil - Committer Member

Mike Milinkovich - Eclipse Foundation Paul White, Wayne Beaton, Tanja Obradovic

Actions marked in red with names of individuals or companies

Goals for this call

Approval of the past mtg min

Confirm all actions from previous call

Requirements and Goals marked final

Discussion on draft on TCK process document

Review of the actions from the previous calls / Agenda

Approval of the past mtg min 28th, June 12th and June 18th and July 25th - not done, document was not made available

All participants please review and be ready to approve on the next call

Fujitsu

IBM

Oracle

Payara

Red Hat 

Tomitribe

PMC

Participant Member

Committer Member

Eclipse Foundation

Note: once meeting minutes are approved we’ll publish them here as pdf files (for each call, separately  dated). This file in going to be our working document for the agenda and meeting notes of a current call as well as meeting minutes that need approval.

Confirm Requirements and Goals document is final - Mike Milinkovich to complete by July 26th

IP Advisory and Spec Committee July 25th call for questions on compatibility / innovation - Mike Milinkovich

• Another call needed, targeting Wed Aug 1st, 1pm EST (Jim Wright and Scott Peterson presence essential for the call) - Tanja to send out Doodle poll
• Refer to Mike’s email and Richard Monson-Haefel’s document with questions for IP Advisory board Link to the document 
• Summary of the call (Scott Stark and Dan Bandera)

• Key points:

Patent Policy document - part of IP Advisory discussion, no additional discussion needed

Can we confirm? Other app servers, beside GlassFish can we expect on Jakarta EE 8

• Wildfly- yes
• IBM Open Liberty- yes
• Fujitsu- yes
• Payara - ?
• Weblogic - Oracle does not comment on future products
• Tomitribe - Apache TomEE (Apache project)- yes

TCK (Technology Compatibility Kit) process 

• First draft due 25th - David Blevins and Richard Monson-Haefel)
• Will use notes from David to collect feedback and then write the document (google doc to be created, based on David’s email)
• Review and feedback from others the following week
• Final version targeted mid August

Can we confirm this? Can we have new spec docs created by referencing old spec + additional new specs, seems to be approved from Oracle legal - need definitive answer from Oracle (primarily, but also) + IBM + RedHat + PMS (Ivar)        

Writing Eclipse / Jakarta EE / Specification Process documents

Tanja / Wayne working on the document - aim to present on August 8th

List of documents that need to be written

• Revisions to existing documents

• Eclipse Contributor Agreement
• Individual Committer Agreement
• Member Committer Agreement
• Terms of Use
• Eclipse Development Process [*]
• Eclipse Foundation Intellectual Property Policy [*]

• New Documents or Agreements In Process

• TCK License + Java EE Trademark Agreement
• Java Trademark License (right to use javax, etc.)
• License to Existing Specifications
• Jakarta EE Participation Agreement
• Eclipse Specification License [*]
• Eclipse TCK License [*]
• Jakarta EE Trademark License [*]
  
  [*] Eclipse Foundation Board approval required

Namespace discussion

• David Blevins to document and invite others to provide feedback.

Suggested options

• ee.jakarta
• jakarta - may be questionable but preferred
• Jakartaee

Issues with the call Meeting invites and google documents with the agenda and previous meeting min- Tanja

• An Agenda to be sent via email a day prior each call
• Link for Google document with Meeting minutes for review to be sent in an email

Spec Committee Meeting Minutes July 18, 2018

Attendees (present in bold):

Kenji Kazumura - Fujitsu, Michael DeNicola

Dan Bandera - IBM, Kevin Sutter

Bill Shannon - Oracle, Ed Bratt 

Steve Millidge - Payara, Arjan Tijms

Scott Stark - Red Hat, Mark Little

David Blevins - Tomitribe, Richard Monson-Haefel 

Ivar Grimstad - PMC Representative

Alex Theedom - Participant Member

Werner Keil - Committer Member

Mike Milinkovich - Eclipse Foundation Paul White, Wayne Beaton, Tanja Obradovic

Actions marked in red with names of individuals or companies

Goals for this call

Approval of the past mtg min

Confirm all actions from previous call

Review the Requirements and Goals document to resolve a handful of remaining issues.

Discuss TCK related topics

Agenda

Tanja to send out link to the google document - Approval of the past mtg min 28th, June 12th and June 18th left for the call next week

All participants please review and be ready to approve on the next call

Fujitsu

IBM

Oracle

Payara

Red Hat 

Tomitribe +1 

PMC

Participant Member

Committer Member

Eclipse Foundation

Mike Milinkovich to make the Requirements and Goals document final - is this completed now?

• Reviewed but due to open questions form Markus moved to next week's agenda for completion

TCK Conversation

TCK release process

• TCK (Technology Compatibility Kit) process - who is writing a draft? (David Blevins and Richard Monson-Haefel)
• First draft due 25th
• Review and feedback from others the following week
• Final version mid August

TCK

• Mandate is to have TCK exists under EF (ee4j working group) (develop where ever, but chosen snapshot for given release level needs to live in Eclipse Foundation)
• One TCK project corresponding to a specification project

TCK versioning

• Do we need to have spec version corresponding to TCK version

TCK challenge process

TCK releases

• version management process

• What should be our approach? How frequent our release need to be? stability vs aggressive releases

• Who calls for a new version?

• Spec committee needs to approve a new version; a new version would be suggested /recommend it by spec project
• recommendation from the project and committee to be used as escalation path (PMC, EMO)

Meeting set up for last week of July IP Advisory and Spec Committee for questions on compatibility / innovation - Mike Milinkovich / Tanja

• Mike Milinkovich - Doodle to set up this call comes July 18th
• please refer to Richard Monson-Haefel’s document with questions for IP Advisory board Link to the document All, please review and contribute

Not discussed

Patent Policy document - Mike Milinkovich

Continue the discussion on the balance between compatibility and innovation, not as opposing alternatives but rater slight nudges in different directions, not stark contrasts.

Mark Little or Scot Stark will hopefully be able to represent Red Hat’s view on this

Writing Eclipse / Jakarta EE / Process specification documents

Can we confirm this? Can we have new spec docs created by referencing old spec + additional new specs, seems to be approved from Oracle legal - need definitive answer from Oracle + IBM + RedHat + PMS (Ivar)        

Can we confirm? Other app servers, beside GlassFish can we expect on Jakarta EE 8

• Wildfly - name clarification needed RedHat ?
• IBM Liberty
• Fujitsu
• Payara - ?
• Weblogic - ?
• TomiTribe - ?

Spec Committee meeting min July 12, 2018

Attendees (present in bold):

Kenji Kazumura - Fujitsu, Michael DeNicola

Dan Bandera - IBM, Kevin Sutter

Bill Shannon - Oracle, Ed Bratt

Steve Millidge - Payara, Arjan Tijms

Scott Stark - Red Hat, Mark Little 

David Blevins - Tomitribe, Richard Monson-Haefel 

Ivar Grimstad - PMC Representative

Mike Milinkovich - Eclipse Foundation Paul White, Wayne Beaton, Tanja Obradovic

Actions are marked in red with individuals or companies

Review of the actions from the previous calls

New time slot confirmed Doodle poll - Wednesdays 12:00 PM EST / 9:00 AM PST

Mike Milinkovich will make the document final by updating the Requirements and Goals document with comments. TBC by next week’s call July 18th.

Goals for this call - we should set up front key items we want to close or make decision on; e.g.

Decide on TCK (Technology Compatibility Kit) process document and timelines

Decide on the approach for Jakarta EE specification documents

Agenda

Patent Policy document - Mike Milinkovich shared the doc with the spec committee

There is an open discussion on whether the policy should lean towards:

• focusing on compatibility (e.g. tie patent licenses to passing TCKs)
• focusing on innovation (e.g. patent licenses are available to all implementers)

        Many provided feedback that compatibility is very important

Oracle’s input is to support both scenations and each project defines its own priority

Eclipse Foundation (Mike / Tanja) to set up a joint meeting IP Advisory and Spec Committee

• Richard Monson-Haefel to send doc with with questions for IP Advisory prior this meeting

        How does compatibility prevent innovation?

        Tanja Obradovic to ensure Mark Little or Scot Stark to attend the next call and answer if compatibility is paramount

        It should be noted that innovation vs. compatibility is not an either/or equation. The two approaches are slight nudges in a certain direction, but tying patent licenses to passing TCKs does not preclude innovation, nor vice versa.

Writing Jakarta EE specification documents

• Current Oracle specification docs - huge documents, not realistic to rewrite all for the goal to have Jakarta EE 8 released this year
• Can we reference specs instead of redefining / rewriting them?
• What is IP flow structure?? will this allow specs to co-exist
• Can we have new spec docs created by referencing old spec + additional new specs, seems to be approved from Oracle legal - need definitive answer from mostly Oracle, but also  IBM + RedHat + PMC (Ivar)
• To engage Oracle legal will take moths which impacts

• Jakarta EE 8 is the same as Java EE 8 - which does not require delta documents (will have spec project and spec committee; Jakarta EE 8 will need open source tck to pass certification);
• Having a decision from Oracle Legal on Specs is mandatory for any future Jakarta EE release

What other app servers, beside GlassFish can we expect on Jakarta EE 8 (Java EE 8) - to be asked at the steering committee

• Wildfly - name clarification needed, RedHat?
• IBM Liberty
• Fujitsu
• Payara - ?
• Weblogic - ?
• TomiTribe - ?

Release Plans for Eclipse GlassFish 5.1 and Jakarta EE 8

• Release plan in works for release of Eclipse GlassFish 5.1 on Java EE 8 in September 2018, Wayne Beaton will present to PMC
• Release plan needed for Jakarta EE 8 by end of the year 2018

Was not discussed at this call

TCK (Technology Compatibility Kit) process - who is writing a draft? (David or Richard??)

• Draft due date?
• Is a week for review and approval enough?
• Final version of the TCK process may take 2-3 weeks. Can we complete by end of July?

TCK challenge process

TCK releases

• version management process

• What should be our approach? How frequent our release need to be? stability vs aggressive releases

• Who calls for a new version?

• Spec committee needs to approve a new version; a new version would be suggested /recommend it by spec project
• recommendation from the project and committee to be used as escalation path (PMC, EMO)

Spec Committee meeting minutes June 28th

Actions:

• Tanja to set up doodle for a new time slot

• Weekly meetings are a must

• Requirements and Goals document is done, feedback is still being collected, please provide feedback

Next steps:

Need to define the TCK challenge process

• defining TCKs is a must but the process needs to be defined first

Meeting Notes:

Now that RI (Reference Implementation) is gone - what does it mean passing a TCK? What happens in the case there is a conflict between implementations (eg different interpretation of the spec, and therefore different outcome when implemented)

Dealing with specifications is a problem - huge documents, not realistic to rewrite all for the goal to have Jakarta EE 8 released this year

Specs to be compliant with - 7000 pages of specs of 33 JSR - how will this happen quickly??

• what does it take to reference specs instead of redefining / rewriting them

• What is IP flow structure?? will this allow specs to co-exist

• Can we have new spec -> to reference old spec + addition on top of the old

Defining a process needs to be a priority

• process should not care how spec gets done

• we should plan in next 2-3 weeks spec and process to be defined

Eclipse GlassFish supporting Jakarta EE is not enough. We need others on Jakarta EE 8

TCK releases

• version management process

• What should be our approach? stability vs aggressive releases

• Who calls for a new version?

• Spec committee needs to approve a new version; a new version would be suggested /recommend it by spec project

• recommendation from the project and PMC to be used as escalation path (PMC, EMO)

TCK maintenance release and then point releases on quarterly releases will show platform making progress freq releases

• but this can end up with vendors being on too many versions in practice

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