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Re: [jakarta.ee-spec.committee] Recent Edits
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Ivar,Some of the discussion here will require
changes to the EDP, per earlier comments from Mike. Some of these
proposed changes are specific to Specification Projects. They would
not apply to all projects. For example, the ability for a company
to change their representative on a Specification Project. The karma
for the Specification will be granted to the company, not an individual.
We should allow a company to change their representative on a Specification
project depending on business needs. We can't extend that type of
karma delegation to individuals.
---------------------------------------------------
Kevin Sutter
STSM, MicroProfile and Java EE architect
e-mail: sutter@xxxxxxxxxx Twitter: @kwsutter
phone: tl-553-3620 (office), 507-253-3620 (office)
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinwsutterFrom:
"Steve Millidge
(Payara)" <steve.millidge@xxxxxxxxxxx>To:
Jakarta specification
committee <jakarta.ee-spec.committee@xxxxxxxxxxx>Date:
05/29/2018 04:28 AMSubject:
Re: [jakarta.ee-spec.committee]
Recent EditsSent by:
jakarta.ee-spec.committee-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
I share Ivar’s concerns here. I am also confused by the definitions and
the developing special nature of this specification project and how that
is going to work in practice with the standard Eclipse API and TCK projects
that will live under the EE4J PMC. So forgive me if I get this wrong are we
saying; Specification Project -> creates Document,
Specification Implementation, TCK?A normal EE4J project under the PMC creates
just the API? Or are we saying Specification Project
just creates the Document and must ensure there is a TCK, API and Specification
Implementation before the Specification can be released. Also given the document just essentially
describes the API and behaviours under the API how is the Specification
project going to control/influence the work of the API project working
under usual EDP rules of engagement? I’m afraid I’m a fairly practical person
and I am now confused about practicalities of who is doing what. Thanks
Steve From: jakarta.ee-spec.committee-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
<jakarta.ee-spec.committee-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Ivar
Grimstad
Sent: 25 May 2018 18:02
To: Jakarta specification committee <jakarta.ee-spec.committee@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [jakarta.ee-spec.committee] Recent Edits Hi, I think we should tread carefully here
so we don't become a corporate club where you have to pay to play, which
is exactly what critical voices in the community have warned against. I can understand the reasoning behind the
wish for a company to being able to replace a committer on a project. But
at the same time, if a corporation is allowed to do that it should probably
apply to individual committers as well. E.g. someone that wants to resign
from the project for some reason and give the reigns over to someone else.
By doing so, we are going against the Open Source Rules of Engagement defined
by the EDP (https://www.eclipse.org/projects/dev_process/development_process.php#2_1_Open_Source_Rules_of_Engagement).
So be prepared for a storm! This will not be well received by our critics... Ivar On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 2:56 PM Richard
Monson-Haefel <rmonson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:Below .... On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 4:02 AM, Mike Milinkovich
<mike.milinkovich@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:Richard,
We (the EMO) are thinking about this, and how we could make it work if
we decide it is the right thing to do.
Two points:- I find it surprising that the small-company
guy is arguing for the corporate approach. I realize that this is quite
typical in standards organizations. Is everyone else on the list comfortable
that this explicit corporate presence is desirable?
Well,
like any other organization that is dedicating resources to the effort
of Jakarta EE, we (Tomitribe) want to ensure that we benefit from that
investment. When an engineer works on a Jakarta EE specification, it costs
the company money in terms of salary, but that's not all. Often the employee
will rely on other resources in the company such as people or equipment.
None of this is free. I am a committer for the EJB Specification
project. Tomitribe is counting on me to make valuable contributions
that will result in a stronger specification which means a healthier market
for Tomitribe and everyone else. If I were to leave Tomitribe, they
would want to protect that investment in time and energy by replacing me
with another qualified individual. My time contributing to specifications
is not a sunk cost. When a company's representative is added
to a Specification Project its done on merit, just like adding an individual.
It's expected that the company can contribute, regardless of the
representative, real value to the definition of the specification. The
company has to have demonstrated expertise in the area concerned.- I hope that you are prepared to
argue for this when our friends like Markus Karg take us to task for being
a bunch of corporate shills ;)
Of
course. -
On 2018-05-24 10:58 AM, Richard Monson-Haefel wrote:Thanks, Mike. At this time committers are defined as
"individuals." I would like to see that expanded to include "representatives".
A representative is the role of committer in a project that can be
occupied by an employee of the company that is represented. Not sure
if that makes sense or not. You can be nominated and elected as a
committer to a project as either an individual or as a representative of
a company. If an elected representative leaves the company they were
elected to represent, the company has the option of appointing a new representative.
If the project wishes to also keep the original representative they
can be re-nominated and elected as an individual or as a representative
of a different company. A representative committeris equal in all other ways to an individual committer. On Thu, May 24, 2018 at 4:09 AM, Mike Milinkovich
<mike.milinkovich@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Please do not worry about how Wayne and I get the approvals in place for
any necessary process changes. I'm confident we can make what we agree
to happen. Let's figure out what the right solution is, and then the EMO
can figure out how to implement it.
On 2018-05-24 1:36 AM, Richard Monson-Haefel wrote:I believe changes to the Eclipse Development
Process require approval by the Eclipse Board, so if a rule change is necessary
it would need to be proposed to the board. Whether or not an exception
can be made for just the EE4J Working Group or if the change would need
to apply to all Working Groups, I do not know. If the rules germane to
this issue cannot be changed, than instead of a rules change it could be
considered a “courtesy” that is commonly extended to companies whose
whose employee, elected as a committer, has ended their employment with
that company. For example: Project X has 10 committers with names (A, B,
C ... J). Committer B worked for ACME Company when elected to a Specification
Project. When Committer B is nominated they declare that although they
are individual they also are an official representative of ACME Company.
This proclamation is not binding in anyway, but is simply informative
part of the nomination. Committer B announces that they are leaving the
ACME Company to become independent but will sign a new Committers Agreement
as an Independent (or their new company will sign one) and will stay on
Project X. The ACME Company makes a request that another employee,
Ms. K, me nominated as a committer to Project X. The Project Lead, as a
courtesy to the ACME Company, can choose to nominate Ms. K. The vote is
taken according to normal Eclipse Development Handbook and Ms. K is either
elected a committer or not. On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 7:22 PM Bill Shannon
<bill.shannon@xxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:That's a start, but that makes it clear
we're inventing new rules for Spec Projects that are different than any
other Eclipse project. Is there a better way to "overlay"
the Spec Project rules on top of the existing Project rules?Richard Monson-Haefel wrote on 05/23/18
02:34 PM:Good point. Here is a counter proposal: In addition to accepting individuals to
a Specification Group, the group lead or the group can nominate/elect (or
whatever) a representative of an organization. If the represenative
leaves that organization, the organization can nominate a replacement represenative.
The original representative can remain on the Specification Group
as an individual or perhaps representing some other company, but the company
that originally invested in that represenative has the right to nominate
a new represenative. The newly nominated represenative can be subject
to a vote by the group. That way the organization that lost the represenative
has the oppourtunity to maintain its place at the table but is not an automatic
“pay to play” contributor. I think that protects the investment made
by the organization when it has payed the representative salary and gave
that time to the Specification Group without making it a “pay to play”
situation. So there can be individual group members and organizational
group members. On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 4:00 PM Bill Shannon
<bill.shannon@xxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:Richard Monson-Haefel wrote on 05/23/18
07:28 AM:
Depending on the membership level, an organization
should automatically get a seat on any specification project they want
but should excercise self-restraint to focus on those specifications germane
to their products. Why, for example, should a company become a strategic
member if it cannot have a seat at the table? So, if you pay then you can play?
What about the people who don't pay?
At the JCP, the Spec Lead would decide whether an expert was qualified
to be on the expert group. We ran into quite a few people who clearly
only wanted to be on an expert group so that they could add that to their
resume. We rejected many of those people.
If "expert group members" are Committers on a Spec Project, who
qualifies the Committers? After the Project is created, I assume
it would be the Project Lead. Before the Project is created, is it
just the person who proposes the project? And you're suggesting that
the Project Lead would have no choice but to accept any Committer proposed
by a paying Member?
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